Texas - Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3

Saran Knight – The Longhorn Ballroom Pt 2

PAUL HECKMANN — Sun, 12 Jun 2022 15:56:59 +0000

Louise Keyes sat down with Saran Groom Knight – daughter of Dewey Groom of Longhorn Ballroom fame.

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Saran Knight – The Longhorn Ballroom Pt 1

PAUL HECKMANN — Fri, 27 May 2022 20:02:05 +0000

Louise Keyes sat down with Saran Groom Knight – daughter of Dewey Groom of Longhorn Ballroom fame.

MP3 download link

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Kim Harmon Gatlin – Bestselling Author of GCB

PAUL HECKMANN — Fri, 21 Jan 2022 18:15:00 +0000

Paul Heckmann sat down with Kim Harmon Gatlin – author of the bestselling book that became the ABC television series “GCB” based on her book. Kim grew up in Highland Park with her cousin Angie Harmon, of “Law and Order” and Elle/Cosmopolitan modeling fame. She was introduced to her future husband Rudy Gatlin of the Gatlin Brothers by KLIF/WFAA personality Billy Bob Harris. Learn all about her in this great interview.

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John Niland – Dallas Cowboy Pro Bowl Guard

PAUL HECKMANN — Wed, 29 Dec 2021 03:05:36 +0000

Paul Heckmann sat down with John Niland – a former Iowa Hawkeye and Dallas Cowboy from the East Coast that played under Tom Landy and earned the nickname “Night Life.” Learn all about him in this great interview.

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Earl Young – Gold Medal Winning Olympic Sprinter

PAUL HECKMANN — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 18:43:01 +0000

Paul Heckmann sat down with Earl Young – a former Californian turned Dallasite. From his days winning Olympic track gold to victory over Leukemia and subsequent nonprofit work, Young has led a life of consequence. Learn all about him in this great interview.

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Tommy Loy, Dallas Cowboy Trumpeter

PAUL HECKMANN — Wed, 18 Aug 2021 19:35:53 +0000

Tommy Loy, Dallas Cowboy Trumpeter

Tommy figuring out how to purse his lips for that first trumpet blow. He’s already figured out that right hand, two fingers equals “E”. He was a natural!

courtesy of Lindi Loy, the Loy Family, Michael Granberry of the DMN and so many fabulous memories

On Wednesday night before Thanksgiving in November of 1966, Tommy Loy’s home phone rang. On the other end of the line was Mitch Lewis, one of his Air Force buddies he hadn’t seen or talked to since 1955. Mitch told him he had been assigned the task of locating a trumpet player for a possible, experimental solo National Anthem for the league’s first color-televised Thanksgiving Day football game. He instructed Tommy to be at The Cotton Bowl around noon the next day for the tryout with Mr. Clint Murchison, the owner of The Dallas Cowboys football organization. Tommy asked if he could stay for the game, regardless of the outcome of the audition and the man assured him that would be fine. It would be the very first game Tommy ever attended.

Tommy’s solo for the Dallas Cowboys

After he performed The National Anthem for Mr. Murchison, he waited to hear if he got the job. The clock was fast approaching kickoff and he hadn’t heard if he was selected so he prepared to find a place to watch the game. Five minutes before kickoff, he got the call that Mr. Murchison wanted to go with his solo rendition, which began what would be a 22-year stint as the Dallas Cowboys solo trumpeter.

Michael Granberry, a staff writer for The Dallas Morning News, wrote “And for all the years that followed, the Loy family sat in covered seats under the press box and the Cotton Bowl and then on the 30-yard line at Texas Stadium. For many years after launching his Cowboys career, Loy’s solo was seen on television, even, one occasion, national television until pregame commercial time became so valuable that CBS decided to ax the national anthem from the broadcast.”

Granberry described Tommy’s rendition as a one-of-a-kind experience of being present at a Dallas Cowboys home game. He went onto say that his moving, distinctive trumpet follow at The Cotton Bowl from 1966 until early in the 1971 season, when the Cowboys moved to Texas Stadium in Irving.

“The quiet dignity Tommy brought to the task stood out amid the gaudy spectacle of a National Football League game. No one accompanied him, aside from the tens of thousands fans sitting in the stands,” added Granberry.

Loy’s Super Bowl V experienced is embedded in the family folklore. Singer Anita Bryant was supposed to perform the national anthem, but she got sick. The late Tex Schramm then the Cowboys’ president and general manager, told network officials: “I have a guy who can play the anthem for you.” So Loy got the call the night before the game. He and his wife, Carolyn, hopped a quick flight from Love Field to Miami just in time for him to blow his horn while wearing a white dinner jacket and black bow tie.

Whether at the Super Bowl or the Cotton Bowl or Texas Stadium, his anthem experience was, his daughter says, the thrill of a lifetime. “It was really meaningful to him. My dad was basically a patriot,” she added. “It was an honor, a privilege. He took it very seriously. And, of course, being a musician, he loved the attention, because he was a natural performer.”

Tommy and his maternal grandmother Eula Watson Long

Born in Denison, Texas in 1930, Loy was the son of a homemaker mother and a father who worked in the hotel business, managing the historic Denison Hotel. His dad died when Loy was 11, so his mother, grandmother and step-grandfather raised him.

During his SMU years, he got invited to join a jazz band called The Cell Block Seven. He enrolled in SMU in 1948, when college football great Doak Walker was still a future Heisman Trophy winner. Loy spent two years in the Air Force and finished his music education degree from SMU in 1955.

On a fall Saturday in 2016, The Sherman Jazz Museum in Sherman, Texas, held a Tommy Loy Celebration Day. Loy’s widow, Carolyn, attended the opening party, along with Lindi and Laura, two of the couples’ four daughters. “He was my dad, but I had no idea how good he was, what an influence he was on other musicians and how well-known he was,” says Lindi Loy. “His name, Loy, was even the answer to a New York Times crossword puzzle. The clue was ‘Cowboy trumpeter’. And the answer of course was Loy.

Growing up “and being a part of that whole experience, I loved it,” added Lindi, recalling fondly the times her dad took her onto the field at the Cotton Bowl, allowing her to snare the autographs of some of the teams’ most iconic players, from wide receiver “Bullet Bob Hayes to Hall of Fame defensive tackle, Bob Lilly, to free safety Cliff Harris. “It was magical,” says Lindi who’s working on a book about her dad, titled Tommy Loy: The Man Behind the Horn.

Tommy and Carolyn raised their girls in Dallas’ University Park suburb, where they graduated from Highland Park High School. “Dad worked two jobs to keep us there and Mom at home to raise us,” Lindi says.

Tommy in his regular job as an engineer at PAMS recording studio

His day job was that of a recording engineer that took him to “several well-known recording studios, one being PAMS Recording Studio in Dallas. He was instrumental in the jingle industry during the late 1950s and early 1960s. And then his night job, Thursday through Sunday, was playing his horn in his Dixieland Band.”

“That was dad’s true love,” added Lindi. “If he could have made a living playing Dixieland music, he would have done that. And the older he got, the more he played.”

Loy died of pancreatic can in October of 2002 when he was 72. “He passed away at the prime of his musical career,” Lindi says. He performed in the Edinburgh Jazz Festival in Scotland just weeks before he died.

In 2000, Loy performed his trumpet solo of the national anthem at Landry’s memorial service at The Meyerson Symphony Center at the request of the Landry family.

And then in 2013, the Cowboys did a very cool thing, Lindi says, by bringing back the tradition of the trumpet-solo anthem. The new trumpeter is jazz musician Freddie Jones. At the beginning of the 2013 season, the Cowboys invited Lindi and her sisters to a game and lined them up on a platform near Jones as he played the anthem. Each sister was given a Cowboys jersey with the No. 22, “representing”, Lindi says, “the 22 years Dad played the anthem.” One sister held the Cowboys blazer her dad used to wear; another held his trumpet.

The famous Tommy Loy trumpet and the cornet he used to play with his Dixieland band, are at The Sherman Jazz Museum, where the museum showcases horns played by such greats as Doc Severinsen, Maynard Ferguson, Clark Terry and Marvin Stamm, among others. And now, Tommy Loy’s horn will be right there with them.

Tommy with three of his daughters, Lindi, Lewelen and Laura

HI Lindi! I saw a comment you made about your Dad passing in 2002. I am sorry to hear that. I lost my father about the same time but I wanted to let you know how what a special place in our family YOUR Dad had. My father, as Cowboy season ticket holder, always loved your Dad’s trumpet playing at every home game. I remember how stupid I felt one day in high school when I finally put 2 and 2 together and realized that was your dad! Take care and have a great Thanksgiving!

Ted

Interview with Jim Long – TM Productions

Your Dad never really wanted to be a producer or an engineer. He wanted to play his horn. As good as he was with the clients and the singers, I felt that I didn’t get the best out of him – it was a paycheck to him. So I was frustrated with him a lot of the time. I left like I never reached him or could motivate him because he was more interested in playing.

He had so much talent in so many different ways but he focused on playing. We were in the business of music and we were working on an assembly line. After the original recordings were made, the fun is over and the grind started and he was at the end of the line and I’m sure got bored as hell listening to the same line for the 100^th time with a different call letter. I’ll never forget watching the Cowboys games and having someone who worked with me had such a wonderful opportunity to play and I don’t think he ever missed a note.

We were not close but he was a fun guy, he had a good sense of humor. I would always look forward to the office Christmas party and after Tom got loaded he would pick a fight and tell me all the things that he had been storing up for the year. After several years of that, I used to go up and tell him I was ready to take my medicine, and it wasn’t any fun for him.

He functioned at a pretty high level but every once in a while he would go to lunch and not come back. It didn’t happen a lot but it caused problems. He was so smart and knew about so many things.

Bernie Arendes – Air Force Buddy

Remembers Tom showing up from San Antonio, TX and joining the band. Although they were in the military, it was like being in college without the books.

He remembers Dad as a good musician who played French horn and he sang very well. He remembers that Dad was easy to work with and he ran the band when Steve Sample was gone.

They played at the officer’s club, the NCO club and the service club. Every once in a while, they would go off base and play at the Selma Country Club.

The last photo of Tommy with daughter Lindi and granddaughter Meredith Boyer

Lee Roy Jordan

What years (how long) did you play for the Cowboys?

1963 – 1976 – 14 years

What year were you inducted into the Ring of Honor?

1989 – First year of Jerry Jones ownership – Recognized him as a leader of the defense. He felt like he had a great grasped on Tom’s defense and could call the plays.

What do you remember about Tommy?

He had a warm, friendly personality – a fun guy to be around before the game.

How did you feel when you heard him play the National Anthem?

His playing was a sincere presentation of our National Anthem and showed a true allegiance to our country.

I know you were focused on the task at hand but did he help calm you and help you focus?

It really calmed me down and settled my nerves. The music was so pure and heartfelt and gave me an opportunity to relax before I went out on the field and to do my best for the Cowboys.

Tony Liscio

How long did you play for the Cowboys?

1963-1972 – 9 years – from the Cotton Bowl to Texas Stadium – When we won the Super Bowl

How did you feel when you heard him play the National Anthem?

You’ve warmed up and your adrenalin is going and then you hear that song. It’s a beautiful song, when you hear it and you take pride in it. You know you’ve got to go out there and do your best. As soon as the song is over with, then you’ve got to go and take care of business.

John Niland

We knew as soon as Tommy started playing to stand still and pay attention. He was the best.

Tommy at age 68

The sweet sounds from Tommy Loy’s trumpet drifted up into the heavens from Texas Stadium for all the Dallas Cowboy fans waiting there until he joined them, rest in peace Dad.

Tonny playing at the Cowboy game

Club Schmitz

Tommy’s father, Lewis “Lute” Lafeyette Loy

Tommy’s Baby Picture – 7 Months Old

Tommy with his mother, Hazel Loy

Tommy with his maternal grandmother Eula Watson Long

Tommy and his dad Lute Loy

Tommy with 3 of his daughters, Lindi, Lewelen and Laura

Tommy in junior high school

Tommy at age 68

Tommy at 6

Tommy and crew working at PAMS recording studio

Tommy playing the national anthem at Super Bowl V

Tommy Loy at the eulogy for Tom Landry, special request of the Landry Family, courtesy DMN

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STEVE BROOKS, ARTIST EXTRAORDINAIRE!

PAUL HECKMANN — Sat, 10 Jul 2021 23:17:29 +0000

Interview by Paul Heckmann
Edited by Tex Collins & Paul Heckmann

Paul Heckmann: How you doing, man?

Steve Brooks: Oh, they’re tearing up our street, replacing all the gas lines. I had to go out there and see what the damage was.

Paul: Oh man, that’s not good. Is that the result of the snow and everything?

Steve: No, it’s something they’ve been planning. It’s part of – they’re replacing all the old gas lines. They’ll probably get to your neighborhood soon.

Paul: Yeah. Well, that’s an interesting neighborhood over there, man. How close are you to Kessler Parkway?

Steve: Less than three blocks.

Paul: All right, okay. Did you know that John Wayne used to stay at a house there?

Steve: Rumor had it, yeah.

Paul: I’ve got photos of it.

Steve: Oh, really?

Paul: A fella named Benny Bickers lived there. He was with Warren Diamond and those guys at the turn of the century – early 1900s – and, the Three Bennies, Bennie Bickers, Benny Binion, and there’s one Ben Whitaker

Warren Diamond had some cancer and killed himself, and he had everything set up, and basically, these three guys took over part of the numbers scene in Dallas – not all of it, but no matter what Benny Binion says he did – he was full of it. And, Bennie Bickers was also a big boxer. He had part of his arm shot off when he was a kid, and he couldn’t go into pro boxing, but he became a promoter and fight-fixer and stuff like that, so I got pictures with him and Bugsy Siegel and people like that.

Later on, he bought a place there in Kessler Parkway. Well, Benny also ran the club on top of the Santa Fe Building – the University Club – and in that club, they had everybody from John Wayne to Bing Crosby to Alice Faye, you name it – all these people come through there. John Wayne would come up and stay at Bennie Bickers’s house there when he was shooting The Alamo, that was there at Kessler Parkway.

Steve: That’s great. That’s a good story. I don’t have any of my older relatives around anymore that grew up over here. They’ve passed on.

Paul: Let’s get to Steve Brooks.

Steve: If you want to.

Paul: Ha! Of course. You are a legend around Dallas. Folks may not recognize your full name as you signed S Brooks, but most everyone knows your work.

Steve: Yeah, they just have “S. Brooks.”

Paul: I love the fact you’ve got a collection up there at UNT. Let’s talk Steve Brooks there. Were you born in Dallas?

Steve: Right down the street in Methodist.

Paul: So, where’d you go to elementary school?

Steve: It was called George Peabody over on Westmoreland and Jefferson, kind of far west Oak Cliff.

Steve: It’s less than a half a mile east of Cockrell Hill.

Paul: Oh, wow. So, that’s a pretty good little drive for you.

Steve: Right away, the area was called Beverly Hills because it was – up the street from us was Sivils Drive-In. You heard of Sivils Drive-In?

Paul: You bet. Okay, where’d you go to junior high school at?

Steve: Stockard.

Steve: It was off of – it was between Hampton and Westmoreland, just north of Illinois.

Paul: So, you still had to drive. None of these were in your neighborhood.

Steve: I had to walk or take the bus. Back then, I had a bus card, so I would take the bus.

Paul: So, then you went to Sunset, right? When did you graduate from there?

Steve: That would have been in 1967.

Paul: Ouch! Vietnam! That short period for HS grads when you’re trying to figure out what to do next, huh? “Man, if I can figure out how to go to college, maybe I don’t get drafted.”

Steve: That’s exactly what it was. I had a low draft number. Well, my brother – he had a low draft number, and he went ahead and enlisted. He never saw any action.

Paul: Yeah. A lot of people did that – they signed up and got to either stay in the States, or – my roommate went to Saigon, but he never saw any action other than grenades going off outside his building.

Steve: Do you also have memories of the Dallas/Fort Worth music scene?

Paul: Some. I grew up in Waco but came up here for concerts. Moved here in late 76.

We started Memories of Texas Music. So, you’re gonna be our first one, really, for that page because yours really ties into the music scene quite a bit.

You graduated from Sunset. Did you decide to go to UNT at that time?

Steve: No, I went to Texas Tech. I thought I wanted to be an architect. My dad was pretty…well, not terribly well-known Dallas architect, but he did a lot of recognizable buildings in Dallas. I thought I wanted to be an architect, and I was pretty good at it in high school, but luckily, at Tech, there was a degree program called dual course requirement – you could do commercial art and architecture combined. I realized the architecture part was just a little too much for me.

Paul: Too much math?

Steve: The math and whatever that involved. So, I ended up transferring to Dallas Baptist College and went in the art program there and became the art student of the year in ’68. I loved it. It was really nice.

Paul: It didn’t hurt that you were good at it. A lot of people love art, and they’re not good at it.

Steve: It was okay. I just liked producing art.

Paul: So, how did you go from Dallas Baptist up to North Texas?

Steve: My professors at Dallas Baptist said, “You should try a bigger school,” and I actually was interested in North Texas because I knew they had a great art department, so I said, “Yeah, that’s what I’m gonna do, I’m definitely gonna go there.” So, I commuted there for two years.

Paul: You were at North Texas when you started working for The Iconoclast?

Steve: Well, I met Stoney Burns in ’69 while I was at North Texas.

Paul: Oh, really? What was he doing there?

Steve: Well, Stoney had Dallas Notes from the Underground.

Paul: I remember that, yeah.

Steve: A little three-story house over on Live Oak. Wow, what a hippie crash pad that was.

Paul: So, you knew Jesus Carrillo, and Stoney, and all those guys. So, you knew Kirby Warnock too, then.

Steve: Good friends with Kirby, yeah. We still do some things together.

Paul: I’ve known Kirby for a long time. We keep crossing paths. Did an interview with him last year.

Steve: I read that. It was a good one.

Paul: Thanks. Let’s get back.

Steve: In ’70…I started hanging out at the original Gas Pipe at 3910 Maple. Jerry Shults was the original owner. I started doing little cartoons and ads, flyers and stuff for him, and then, I think you might have read it in the blurb about people from Treehouse Productions were in there, and they saw some of my stuff, and they wanted me to do a concert handbill for them for a Delaney and Bonnie show at the state fair band shell. That was early ‘70s.

Paul: So, was that Delaney and Bonnie and Friends?

Steve: Exactly – with Clapton and Allman

Paul: Duane Allman. Wow.

Steve: Duane Allman and…the saxophone player from Lubbock – I forgot his name.

Paul: I can’t remember that right now, but I knew those three are the ones I could think of because they did Derek and the Dominoes right after that.

Steve: Exactly, Derek and the Dominoes.

Paul: What another great tie-in. I love it! Wow. So, you were doing Delaney and Bonnie, and that started your concert production, didn’t it – at that point?

Steve: Okay, so, I did that handbill, probably didn’t charge much. Now, Frank – actually, what they followed – I did a poster called the Lee Park Massacre. There were very few of them printed. The owners of a head shop on Henderson called Through the Looking Glass called me.

They were in the Gas Pipe and they saw my stuff. You know the Lee Park Massacre, which was April of ’70. And, Cliff Sugarman, and he started an agency and started promoting concerts.

And, we did Sly and the Family Stone, I did a handbill – they said, “Come work for us.” I said, “Sure, okay…freelance.” So, we did Sly and the Family Stone and riot and some other concerts, and then, they finally just started forming an agency and said, “Come be our art director.” I was still in school. I said, “Okay, I want to still go to school. Can I come in two days a week?” They said, “Yeah.”

Paul: So, you’ve already started your career in your chosen field while you’re still studying for your career.

Steve: Still a college student. Well, I did one more semester at North Texas, and I said, “I’ve got a good thing going for me, I’m just gonna go ahead and drop out.” So, anyway, for several months there, we were doing really good, doing a lot of shows. We did Ten Years After, we did Three Dog Night – a lot of Three Dog Night shows, quite a few – and then, Concerts West – I’m sure you’re familiar with them.

Paul: I’ve seen – I’ve had their posters on the page there.

Steve: They were big. They were really big. Concerts West was run by…I wish I could remember his name. He was a big-time promoter and film producer. I can’t remember his name. Anyway, we started jobbing work after them, so I was designing handbills for Concerts West. Then, our agency kind of folded, and Concerts West just did freelancing for us – we started designing stuff for them a whole lot from 1970 through ’75 or so.

Paul: Okay. So, were you – now, you said something about they saw your work at Gas Pipe. Had you started drawing for Gas Pipe then, or was that through Iconoclast that they saw?

Steve: Yeah, I was still doing the Gas Pipe advertising.

Paul: What year did you start with them?

Steve: Well, that would have been the Lubbock Peace Festival, which was in April of 1970. But, everything was freelance. None of them paid a salary.

Paul: “Yeah, we’ll work out a trade, don’t worry about. We got our new bongs in this week, Steve!” I remember those days pretty well.

Steve: Well anyway, yeah, Jerry Shults up at the Gas Pipe – fantastic friend of mine, and still is.

Paul: All right. So, you are doing posters – let’s see here. So, you’re about ’75 now. Now, which came first, the tennis shoes for Whiskey River or the Willie posters?

Steve: So, I ran into a promoter named Gene McLaughlin. There was another shifty character. And, he actually booked talent at The Western Place. So, Gene was also freelancing for Iconoclast, which was a stepson of Notes from the Underground. That’s how Iconoclast came along.

Steve: I’ve still got a few old Iconoclasts.

Paul: Do you really? I remember when I saw your stuff in Buddy magazine, I’m like, “I know this look, I know this artwork. Where do I know this artwork? Oh yeah, now I know.” Tell me more about Willie.

Steve: Buddy came after Iconoclast. So, Gene McLaughlin had seen my work in Iconoclast, and he says, “I’ve got a concert coming up in Abbott, Texas. It’s Abbott Homecoming, and it’s got Willie, Waylon, a bunch of people – good people.” So, I designed that particular advertising – handbills, posters.

Paul: Was that the original Farm Aid?

Steve: No, no. It was all for profit. So, that’s how I ended up designing the logo for Willie with these spurs on them, and Willie really liked it. I actually went to Willie myself and sold it to him. I met him down at his place in Austin.

Paul: What year would that have been, ’73?

Steve: Yeah, that was fall of ’73.

Paul: Okay. So, you’d done this poster for Willie, and you’ve got a tie-in to him because he likes your stuff, so what happens after that?

Steve: I just started doing a lot of stuff for him, not right away, but beginning around ’76. I did a lot of stuff for him on and off going ’73 up until ’76, and then, around ’76, they got their in-house promotion called Me and Paul Productions.

Paul: Yeah, I saw that one up there at UNT. Now, you must have done Whiskey River in ’75, though.

Steve: Well, yeah, those crooks… [Laughs] I didn’t get paid for them to use the logo because it was already Willie’s and Willie was a so-called silent partner in that operation, so they just borrowed the logo for Whiskey River. Willie had paid for the logo. It was not copyrighted for anything. It could be used for anything.

Paul: Yeah. Well, we’re still gonna make this your logo from Whiskey River. You know that, right? We will give you credit, even if they didn’t.

Steve: Well, it’s true, and I did do a couple of designs for them, and I don’t know if I got paid for them or not.

Paul: Well, it was really interesting because Willie, of course, although he was a third owner, he didn’t actually play there until Phil talked him into doing a three-night set, and the first night he was there, they had to pull him offstage because he threw his guitar at his sister, who was playing piano. I asked Phil about it, I says, “Why’d he do that?” He says, “Because we’d just done some PCP, whatever makes you angry? He said, “We’d just done that before we went onstage.” I said, “Phil, what the hell were you thinking?” He laughed and says ‘It was the 70s”

Steve: Yeah, at that time, there was quite a bit of that going on.

Paul: There was a lot of craziness, yeah. I got you, man. So, at this point, you’re probably just about to start working on Buddy magazine, right?

Steve: Well, Buddy started in ’75 if I’m remembering correctly.

Paul: So, you knew – obviously, you already talked about Kirby. You knew Ron McKeown over there too?

Steve: Ron’s a good friend.

Paul: Yeah, we’ve worked together on a couple little things. And, you became an editor there too, huh?

Steve: I was a senior editor, right.

Paul: Oh, wow. Well, that’s something very different from artwork.

Steve: Well, all I did was edit my own artwork.

Paul: Oh, okay. So, you were the art editor, not the interview editor or anything like that.

Steve: No, Paul. This is basically a title to get on the masthead. Somebody might write an article and say, “Well, why don’t you read this and tell us what you think?”

Paul: Yeah, make sure there’s not anything misspelled in it or anything like that. That’s actually an art, and I don’t have it. That’s why I send mine out to – we’ve got about four people that edit my stuff because I’m so bad at it.

Steve: Me too.

Paul: So, this was about ’76 or ’77. So, you’re doing a ton of posters, and concerts, and handbills, and matchbooks, and all sorts of stuff.

Steve: I’ve got it on a hard drive – a portable hard drive. I could burn you CDs. (FYI – we got all 600 plus of his projects)

Paul: You have so much visual items, that might be really interesting to do.

Steve: I suppose you’ve heard about the Wittliff Collection down at Texas State University.

Paul: Uh-huh.

Steve: Well, I interviewed with them a few years back. The guy came up here – drove up – and he was really interested because he saw all the stuff that I’d done for Willie, and without bragging too much, it’s substantial. But, all he did was wanna talk about himself.

He was in some band out of San Antonio. Well, anyway, I didn’t hear back from him, and I went, “Well, I guess he just forgot.” So, I knew that at University of North Texas, there was a library that did collections. I don’t know how I came across it, but I just called them, and they said, “Yeah, we’d like to see what you have.” I brought everything up there, and they just – “Wow. We want this now.” He understood exactly what was there.

Paul: There’s two places to go. One is UNT – well, actually, three. The other is DeGolyer at SMU, and also UTA. Those are the three places. But, DeGolyer or UNT are the two places, and you chose one very well.

Steve: Yeah, being an alumni, I really wanted to go with UNT. I thought about SMU. I’ve seen some of their stuff, and they’ve got a great collection.

Paul: I wish that UNT would put more of your stuff online.

Steve: Well, that was gonna… Because there’s so much of it, to digitize it and put it out there where you can actually see the digital catalog…

Paul: It’d be overwhelming.

Steve: It took so much time for them to do all that. I’ve already got it all, and I gave them the CDs.

Paul: I will try to see if we can figure out a way to show this online for you.

Steve: They’ve offered to actually do a showing. We talked about putting something together, then the pandemic happened. We haven’t really spoke about it since then.

Paul: So, let’s go back to your movie career. Honeysuckle Rose – tell me about that.

Steve: Okay, now we’re gonna jump out up to ’79. Well, the Me and Paul Productions – that’s the key factor here – I was doing it from ’76 up until this point of ’79. Paul English – great guy. Loved him to death. Well, I did some of the artwork for the ’75 picnic in Liberty Hill. So, Paul gave me permission to do Willie Nelson’s T-shirts. I didn’t print up enough. I only printed up 300. I said, “What do you want for this, Paul?” He said, “I’ll give you a dollar a shirt.” Next day, I went to the hotel and gave him $300.00 cash, and we remained really good friends. Then, Willie had me come up to Colorado – actually, had me paint a tepee for him at his place.

Steve: It was actually on the Barbara Walters special with Willie. If you look in the background, you’ll see a tepee. So, I was there painting the tepee. Then, we did the picnic in ’79. Willie had just bought the country club down there – Pedernales Country Club. So, we did that picnic – well, it was right after the picnic. So then, he wanted me to come up to Colorado to his house. He’d bought another tepee that he wanted me to paint. This thing was huge. It was in Life magazine. You should see that.

Paul: Willie’s tepee, okay. I’ve gotta look these up. This sounds interesting.

Steve: Yeah, the Life magazine it came out in was a couple years later. So, I painted that tepee. Then, after I finished that tepee, I was finishing up, and he said, “Steve, we want you to come down to Austin. We’re getting ready to start a movie. I want you to hear these two songs.” So, he played me “On the Road Again” and “Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground.” He’d just recorded these.

Paul: Oh, God – and they hadn’t been released yet?

Steve: They hadn’t been because they were gonna be in the movie. When I heard “Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground,” I just started crying. “God, Willie, that is a beautiful song.”

Paul: Both of them. I love them both, man.

Steve: He said, “Well, you gotta go on to Austin, we’re starting a movie and they need your artwork.” “Sure, I’ll do it. I’m out of here.” He gave me a wad of hundred-dollar bills – $1,600.00. I remember that well. He just reached in his pocket and started peeling them off.

Paul: Oh my God, man.

Steve: So then, I started in. “Okay, here we go – the movie, Honeysuckle Rose.” They wanted me to do this artwork and switch all the rope lettering that said “Willie” to read “Buck Bonham.” That was the character in the movie – Willie. He was Buck Bonham. So, I started doing all that work and turning in the invoices to Paul. I was freelancing for Me and Paul Productions still. And, the first invoice I gave to Paul, he said, “That’s not enough. Double it.”

Paul: Oh, my God.

Steve: They were paying Paul back for what he was doing them for. Rock and roll business – don’t you love it?

Paul: When it’s good, it’s good. When it’s not good – ugh.

Steve: When I started freelancing in the ‘70s and particular artists would say, “Can you do some artwork for me?”, I’d say, “Well, I’ll tell you what. Normally, everyone else, I want 50%, but since you’re a musician, that’ll be 100%.” I’ve been burned by far too many musicians. And, I can give you some really popular names.

Paul: I know a few myself. I’m with you. But, boy, if you do them wrong on a gig, holy cow. It’s kind of like the whole scene is screwed up.

Steve: Plus, Willie’s group – they were all packing heat back then. You did not mess with them.

Paul: Wow, guns?

Steve: Yep.

Paul: So, this is about 1979. So, you’re still working on the movie. Did you work on the movie while it was being filmed, too?

Steve: Yeah, I got to be an extra in a couple of scenes, but mostly, I was doing a lot of – I could tell you about all the things that I did in the movie.

Paul: So, you did some set work.

Steve: Yeah, we – one huge set work for Slim Pickens that was called Garland’s Day. I did the big banner in front of the stage for the last scene of the movie. I rented an apartment in Austin and painted it in the room overhead.

Paul: Wow. I’ll see if I can find that.

Steve: It’s at the very end. It’s Garland’s Day. It’s in green, and it’s a picture of Slim Pickens. He was Garland. When I met Garland – well, Slim Pickens – accused me of breaking his nose again, and that’s another story. We had a big laugh about that – I had an old press photo of him that I used. Nice guy.

Paul: That’s what Burton said, man. He said he had the best time doing Blazing Saddles.

Steve: Sure, that’s right. Yeah, they did work together.

Paul: So, what happens after ’79?

Steve: Well, gosh. Still doing stuff for Willie, but kind of winding down. I did his personal logo for stationery, just the flying tennis shoe – you’ve seen that with Willie.

Paul: At this time, were you still working with Alice Cooper in Chicago and all those guys?

Steve: No, no, not so much. Concert handbills, still doing – mostly just doing stuff for Buddy and the Gas Pipe. The Gas Pipe then started doing a lot of advertising.

Paul: I saw that. You’ve been doing their calendar since about day one, right?

Steve: Well, I think the first calendar came out in ’73. Yeah, that’s my calendar – it’s almost 50 years of calendars coming up soon.

Paul: That’s amazing. One artist doing it, all but – so, I saw there was one year you didn’t do it.

Steve: One year I didn’t do it, right.

Paul: Were they pissed off at you or something that year?

Steve: We never talked about that.

Paul: Ah, okay. We won’t bring that up, then.

Steve: They came to me and said, “We need you to do them from now on.” But, I did move to Taos, New Mexico in ’83. I was gonna take my shot at being a so-called Western artist, quote unquote. I started painting a lot, and man, did I start painting. I painted and painted every morning I got up and I was painting.

Paul: So, you’ve embarked on your second career that usually doesn’t pay a lot of money after your first one, logos, which usually doesn’t pay too many people a lot of money. You decided to become a painter in Taos, which nobody gets paid for.

Steve: I was okay. You know why? I had a gallery that – I produced a poster for the Willie Lewis guys, and it benefited the Taos Pueblo, so I wanted to just go ahead, move to Taos, paint, and sell my paintings to a gallery who’d represent me, and I was doing okay. I was eking out a living, paying bills. That’s what it is, it’s struggling artists. I could still be there, but some circumstances came up, and I had to come back to Dallas.

Steve: Well, that would have been mid-‘80s. Mostly, that’s off of something – the Gas Pipe took off. They really took off, started opening up a lot more locations. They expanded to Austin, and I went down there and painted a couple murals on their stores down there. They opened two locations in Albuquerque, so I went up there, did some murals for those locations. All in all, just – they were the main client.

Paul: So, are you working other kinds of jobs at this point to make a living?

Steve: Not until around…let’s see, around 1995. I can’t remember what year. I went to work with George Toomer. He was probably one of the best commercial graphics artists in Dallas at the time. He did all of Razzoo’s, Dick’s Last Resort.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Steve: He almost – I tell you, Dick’s Last Resort was – basically, the visual was his creation, and all their menus… I spent four years with George.

Paul: So, you had a regular paycheck.

Steve: Oh, it was a regular paycheck. I made so much money I had to pay quarterly taxes for the first time ever.

Paul: All right, so you got a little Social Security coming in.

Steve: I do, yeah! That $500.00-a-month check – wow!

Paul: So, you worked for George there until about, what, late ‘90s?

Steve: Four years. I can’t remember the exact years, but it seems about right.

Paul: Okay. So, you get more or less to the year 2000. What goes on after that?

Steve: I’m still banging out Gas Pipe.

Paul: Okay. You have some nice connections, I would imagine, from the retail industry there with Razzoo’s and other things like that. Were you doing anything like menus or anything like that for anybody else?

Steve: No, those are the only accounts, Razzoo’s and Dick’s.

Paul: Okay. Were you doing any business advertising in these days or anything like that?

Steve: Yeah, a few things here and there, little jobs.

Paul: Sure, gotcha. So, let me ask you this. You’re in the 2000s there, and you’re kind of looking toward do I wanna retire, does an artist ever get to retire, that kind of – I imagine it’s going on in your head. So, you’re still getting a little bit of income coming from Mr. Shults and the Gas Pipe. Is that what’s going on today with you?

Steve: I’m pretty much laid back now. I lost sight in my right eye.

Paul: Oh, you’re blind.

Steve: Not totally blind. I had several operations, and they couldn’t fix it, so all I’ve got is my left eye. So, I would say from 2010 up until now, eBay. I’ve sold a lot of my extra handbills, posters, stuff I’ve collected over the years, and the supplemental income is really good.

Paul: Well, what I’ll do is – do you have your own store there on eBay?

Steve: I list as Cosmic Cow Pie.

Paul: Cosmic Cow Pie. Before the story goes – I’m gonna send it out to transcription, then it goes to my editor, so it’s still a couple of weeks away, maybe three weeks away, and then I’ll get all that information from you before we finish it up. But, let me ask you this: If you had your favorite, top five Steve Brooks artworks, what would they be?

Steve: Oh gosh, I really couldn’t say.

Paul: What was your favorite? What’s the one that you just keep – “Man, I can’t believe I did that”?

Steve: That I’ve produced? Well, gee. Nothing really that I could… You’ve probably never seen it; I’ve probably never shown it to anybody. Does it really exist? I am fond of the Willie Blue Skies lithograph, the thing that brought me to Taos.

Paul: Willie Blue Skies?

Steve: It’s a big lithograph. I’ll give you one. Yes, I will.

Paul: We will put that – whenever we open up our office, whenever we get this thing set up with the Meadows Foundation, we’ll make sure it’s there. How big is it?

Steve: Oh, I’d be happy for you to own one. Willie Nelson himself bound me to do so much work for him, and to meet the people in his circle – still friends with roadies and band members all these years. God, what wonderful, great people they are. Nobody can put down Willie Nelson’s family, not while I’m around.

Paul: And, they’re tight, too, I’ll bet.

Steve: They are.

Paul: Nobody gets in unless it goes through the whole family, I would imagine.

Steve: Well, back then – it was years ago. Nowadays, we’ve lost so many members.

Paul: Oh, yeah. Well, Willie must be, what, in the late 70s, something like that.

Steve: He’ll be 88 in May.

Paul: Eighty-eight? Holy cow. I didn’t realize he was that old.

Steve: When I was doing that tepee for him in Irving, he had me call Jerry Jeff Walker. “Who?” “Jerry Jeff Walker.” “What?”

Paul: I was a huge fan of his, man.

Steve: No, seriously, I did some artwork for Jerry Jeff. Susan, his wife, is a wonderful lady. (Jerry Jeff passed away in late 2020) Anyway, Jerry Shults has the Ridglea Theater in Fort Worth.

Paul: Oh, Jerry Shults does.

Steve: Yeah.

Paul: Ridglea Theater – I’ve heard of that.

Steve: It’s a prime – in fact, the venue for Fort Worth besides Billy Bob’s. It’s where you’d wanna book a show. Anyway, he’ll tell you more about it.

Steve: The Dallas people like Larry Hagman, he was a good guy. I remember being around him. Do you remember Wendy Moss? She was the party planner in Dallas. She had a big party one night, and Larry was there, and he was going around with a little portable fan. If you were smoking, he’d put this fan at you.

I did some work for the Walker, Texas Ranger people, and for Rob Edelson, one of the major set designers.

Paul: Did you do the logo for them?

Steve: No, no, I just did a few things for some background scenes, just a couple episodes.

Paul: Thanks so much for your time Steve. I’ve give you a call to set up a time to pick up those CD.

Steve: Thanks for doing this.

Paul: You are fondly remembered Steve, even though folks may not know your name!

All Photos in this interview are courtesy of Steve Brooks and his fabulous art collection!

The Video starts about 1 minute in with over 600 examples of his various works including calendars, handbills, hand and line drawings and posters

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LOUIS FITE, PARADE ALL AMERICAN

PAUL HECKMANN — Sat, 13 Mar 2021 21:43:15 +0000

Louis: Hello?

Paul: Good. Paul Heckmann here, sir.

So, let’s get right to it. So I undertand you’re a SoCal kid, born in Compton, California?

Louis: Yes sir, I was born in Compton, California.

Paul: Wow, okay, all right. I know exactly where it’s at. I used to work in San Pedro on the ships down there.

Louis: Oh, yes sir, I know exactly where that’s at.

Paul: A little bit different place, you know?

Louis: Oh, my God, it was rough. Fights and worse happening all the time.

Paul:` How old were you when you moved to Waco

Louis: I didn’t move to Waco till I was 12.

Paul: Did your parents send you to Waco?

Louis: Well, my auntie sent me to Waco. I was living with my auntie. My mother, my father had left me with her, it was hard. She was doing the drugs and everything.

Paul: Oh no.

Louis: Yes, yes. I was homeless at that – like at age of 9 years old, on the street.

Paul: Oh my God. Oh, in Compton, too. Ooh, boy.

Louis: Yes, sir.

Paul: So, how did you survive there?

Louis: Just really just like trying to go to school every day, eat breakfast and lunch. I wasn’t really going to eat dinner, you know? I just – what I got out of school, you know, reality kicked in and I had nowhere to go. So, I just really went to convenience stores and they helped a lot. They give me something to eat, and after that I find me some homeless people and follow the trail with them.

Paul: Yes. Were you digging into trash cans?

Louis: Yes sir. I did all that.

Paul: Now, you said your auntie sent you to Waco.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: And now who was here in Waco that you knew?

Louis: Well, my mother was in Marshall, Texas, and my grandmother passed away. My mother’s mother passed away and left her house in Waco, so they moved to Waco and they got my auntie and told her we finally got a house. So, she sent me to Waco.

Paul: Okay. What part of town were you all in in Waco?

Louis: East Waco.

Paul: I see you all were over at Wiley, were you?

Louis: Yes, I was living by Wiley, but I went to Lake Air.

Paul: Oh, wow, that’s a drive.

Louis: That’s a drive, yes. It was crazy because like all the Waco kids, they were at Wiley and all the East Waco kids, we all went to Lake Air.

Paul: You know something? That happened when I was at Richfield, which of course became your HS, Waco High.

Louis: But my brother went to school at Richfield.

Paul: What was his name?

Louis: Dwayne. Dwayne Low. He was like ’82, ’83.

Paul: Yes, a little bit after me.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: So, you’re down at – you went to Lake Air Jr High. Did you play ball when you were at Lake Air?

Louis: Yes, I played some ball. They was like, it’s like when they – like after the sixth game of the season and the seventh game, the people said that I couldn’t even touch the ball no more because I was – like I scored every time I touched the ball, you know? So, they were like, you can’t touch the ball no more. I was like, really, coach? He’s like, yes, you gotta wait till next year to touch the football. You were bad, some people.

Paul: I guess you were going there with Curtis Jones, is that correct?

Louis: Yes, Curtis. I was to there – yes sir.

Paul: And then Waco HS. Coach Tusa just loved me to death, man. You could tell, his voice just lit up when he was talking about you, so did Coach Harms. Yes, I talked to Coach Harms, too.

Louis: Oh, I loved those guys.

Paul: Coach Harms was my offensive coordinator when I want to Texas A&I so we reminisced a bit.

Louis: That’s crazy. Coach Harms was a good man.

Paul: We both followed the same path, just different times, you know?

Louis: Right. You got that right.

Paul: I’ll talk about him in a minute. I gotta talk about Coach Tusa.

Louis: Okay.

Paul: Now, you were there with Coach Tusa and Coach Grimes and some people like that.

Louis: Yes sir. Coach Grimes, Coach Love, Coach Bishop.

Paul: Now, tell me a little bit about in high school. Now, you come up from Lake Air. Now, I heard in one interview you did that you were homeless for a while while you were in high school, is that correct?

Louis: Yes, I was homeless my whole high school years.

Paul: No kidding.

Louis: Yes, I was homeless from the ninth grade to the twelfth grade.

Paul: So, what happened to the house over in East Waco?

Louis: It just – I mean, I don’t know. It’s like me, me and my father, we just couldn’t see eye to eye on – like a lot of stuff because I wasn’t used to somebody beating on my mom, you know?

Paul: Oh, no,

Louis: I wasn’t used to that. So, I used to always get into it with him, and my mom would tell me no. Next day he’d do the same thing. You know? So, I was like, he just told me to leave this house, get away from his house. I’m like, okay, I’ll just leave because I don’t want to see anything like that, you know?

Paul: Oh, man, that’s horrible.

Louis: So, yes, yes.

Paul: That’s horrible.

Louis: And so I just – you know, I had it in – I had it in for like a lot of people. A lot of people went to my mom and dad house and they had fun, and they say, you know, “Why you don’t be there?” I’m like, “Y’all don’t see the inside. Y’all see the outside. The inside is deeper, you know?”

Paul: Right. They put on a good front once they were outside.

Louis: They put on a good – yes, yes, yes.

Paul: That’s horrible for your mom, man. It’s absolutely horrible.

Louis: Yes. I don’t understand either. I don’t. You know, I feel like I raised myself. I did it by a lot of people mistakes that I seen them do, I’m not gonna do that. So, that’s how I raised myself on right from wrong.

Paul: Seems like you did one heck of a job, everybody – all of the coaches and everybody that I talked to always talked about your character.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: And there’s a whole lot – what you’re telling me right now, that’s character. I love that, man.

So, let me talk about – let’s talk about being a student.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: Was that tough for you?

Louis: It was. It was tough because you know like when a kid got like a homework assignment, and he can go home and do it, and you got time, you got people that’s gonna help you out, you know?

Paul: Right.

Louis: I’ve never had that. Like anything, homework, anything, I just – I didn’t have time to do it because I had to go get me something to eat, I had to go make sure that I could probably go spend the night over some kid house, you know? And I probably gotta wait till 10:00, 11:00 just to ask his mom and dad because it was hard because I never had a stable place to do a homework. I never had a stable place to study. Because when I got to school, it was class class class, football. Class class class, football. And when I went home, I didn’t have a home.

Paul: Right.

Louis: I didn’t have nowhere to go. I was living in like North Waco Park. I was living sometime in East Waco Park. Sometimes somebody let me spend a night in their den or something like, but I never had a home.

Paul: Little Lions Park, too I bet.

Louis: Yes, yes, yes, Lions Park, you know? So, I never – it was hard for me. I never had a chance to relax and really do what I could do. That’s why people say “Aw, Louis Fite was dumb.” I never had a chance.

Paul: Yes, yes.

Louis: I flunked the SAT test when I was getting put out on the streets. I didn’t know anything. All I knew is I had to survive, go to school, be right. You know, saying get your work done, make sure everything is done before you leave because you can’t take that home. You got nowhere to go, you know?

So, I never – that’s why I never – you know, people say you should blame Coach Tusa, you shoulda had somebody. But we didn’t have no time. He didn’t know what I was going through. I didn’t come through like that. Every now and then I did, but he never knew until my last yearr– until like to the game we played against Copperas Cove. I had like 285, like almost 300 yards in the first half. Coach Tusa was like, “Hey, you know, we gonna get you out.” And I was like, “Coach, I can’t get out to the game.” He was like, “What’s going on?” I said, “Coach, I have my school shit.” I was like, “I want to go back and eat.” He’s like, “Then score.” That’s the only way people get me some, you know?

So, he was like, “What?” I’m like, “Coach, I gotta score. I know I got that many yards, but I need to score. I need to score.”

Paul: So you earned food by scoring?

Louis: Yes.

Paul: Oh, wow, that’s something.

So, did you graduate from Waco High eventually?

Louis: Yes sir, yes sir. I graduated in ’91.

Paul: Okay, all right. Well, let me go backwards just a little bit there. Now, tell me about breaking the rushing record against Temple as a senior.

Louis: When I play football, I just play football. I play with all my guys, I have fun. But that night right there, I didn’t know anything about it until Coach Tusa, he kinda let it slip out, he was like, hey because we was driving up, and it was like 99 degrees, and the field was soaking wet. Soaking. So, we about to get out the bus, Coach Tusa say, he was talking to Coach Love, he say, “Oh, they gonna wimp out on the field.” He’s saying, “I guess they don’t want to try to break this record tonight.” I said, “What record, Coach?” He talking about the rushing record.

He’s like, “You need like 175 yards away.” I say, okay, well, let’s go get it, you know? I wanted to do it for the team, I wanted to do it for all the players that played with me, you know? Some of the kids had died. Some of my friends that I feel like if they would’ve been living, they really would’ve hit up the football team because they was kids that got caught up in bad situations. But I wanted to do it for the whole Waco, you know?

So, that game was kinda pressured because now I got something to do now. It’s just not a football game no more. It’s like I gotta do this, you know?

And so when I broke it, it was like this is for everybody. And Coach Tusa asked, you know, you need to prove it. I said, “Coach, anything I get, you leave it at Waco High because I did it for Waco High. I didn’t do it for the individual thing. It was all team for me.”

I promise you, I promise to God, the only time I knew about a college is when I was a junior – because I didn’t know that you play football in high school and you go to college. I didn’t know that. I just played football to give me something to eat. I didn’t know anything about college. I didn’t know.

I knew about Baylor. I didn’t know how to get to Baylor, but I knew about Baylor because I used to go to the games when I was young, but I didn’t know how to get to Baylor.

Paul: Right.

Louis: Because I didn’t know that you could play high school football and go to Baylor. I didn’t know that. So –

Paul: You had to achieve certain things to get into Baylor, too.

Louis: Right, and I didn’t know anything. I was just playing football. But the first time I noticed about colleges is Keifer Chatham. I don’t know if you knew Keifer Chatham, he was a defensive end for us. He was like a top 20, a top 30 ranked. He was a senior when I was a junior. And I came out the locker room, when I came out the locker room I was running, and I did a flip. I ran and did a flip, woo! And I was almost like a double. I got lead and I kept running. I guess all of the scouts was out there. They was like, “Who is that?” Because he was like, “That’s Louis Fite. He is gonna be the best.”

And I got talked to by a lot of colleges, but I didn’t know what they was talking about.

They like, “You know, we would love to recruit you,” and stuff. I’m like, “You gotta talk to Coach Tusa about that. You gotta talk to Coach Tusa.” I don’t know what to talk about, you know? And that’s the first time I knew about college.

Paul: Because when you go to college, you get fed.

Louis: You get fed. I’m like, “Okay, I can go get fed again.” I was like, “Oh yeah, my senior life, I’m gonna kill it,” and that’s the reason why. That’s the reason why because I seen it. I seen the stats. I seen Keifer set to go to – you know, so I’m like, “Okay, I can do this. I can do this.”

Paul: Oh, man.

Louis: People didn’t – like I didn’t know anything about no college. I was just playing football.

Paul: Well, you were a Super Centex running back, too.

Dave Campbell, I saw the picture of you and Dave Campbell.

Louis: Yes sir. I love him to death, man.

Paul: He did more for football in Texas. You know, one thing, when you finally made that Texas football magazine, that’s when you know you’re good.

Louis: “Team Ball.” That’s when you know you’re good. There used to be a million kids looking for this Texas high school book, Texas Football Magazine. I mean, I’m like – yes. We wanted to see who was in there, what was – yes, that was the day, that was the day. And for him to vote me on the parade, All American, I was like, thank you for everything, you know?

I mean, he had told me plenty of times, he’s like, “Louis, I’ve seen running backs all my life. I’ve been in this game. I’ve never seen a running back like you.” He said, “You is the best I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen some of the best.” He said, “You the best high school running back I’ve ever seen in my life.”

That was amazing to me.

Paul: Oh, wow, wow, that’s – and big, big words from that man. Big words.

Louis: Big words.

Paul: Oh, man. So, were you in track also when you were at Waco High?

Louis: Yes. I ran a 21.5 in the 200. I was fast. I was fast. One thing I could do was run.

Paul: Yes. Tell me about the accident with your cousin, James. I know it’s a sad story, but it is part of your story.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: Tell me a little bit about what happened with your cousin.

Louis: It was just – he was a good guy. He was a good – he was a person that kept me focused, you know?

Paul: Yes sir.

Louis: But he always said, yes – you know – and it was just, it was one night we was walked to a store. We should’ve drove the car. But we had no gas in the car, so we said hey, let’s walk down to the store and get those old jungle juices.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes.

Louis: Those old jungle juices, you know? So, we walked down there to the store. It was me and his sister. So, we walked down there and we turned back around.

Paul: Yes, I know exactly where it’s at.

Louis: And so we walking, and first I was on the outside, you know? And I said, so when we got across the street, it’s a little school called, I forgot, an elementary school. And so I got on the bar. It was like a little bar that you could walk all the way. It’s like a little balancing bar. So, we was walking, I was walking on the balancing bar, and next thing I heard was “Rrrrrrr.” And I looked, and it was boom.

So, when he hit James, like it slowed down. I think, you know, James probably would’ve lived. He probably would’ve had a broken back or something like that, but he still would’ve lived.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes.

Louis: But the man stopped hard. When he stopped hard, James flipped over his head. His head hit the hood, and James took off about 20 yards. He was high and he was like traveling. When he fell, I’m looking at this like it’s a motion picture. I’m seeing this in slow motion, you know?

Paul: And you can still see it till today.

Louis: Right now. I can see it right now.

Paul: Just like it happened.

Louis: I can see it right now. And it’s like when he landed, I’m looking at him, and his sister ran to him. So, when she grabbed him, she grabbed him by like his chest and his hips, and she pulled him up, and his head rocked back. And when his head rocked back, his whole brains came down.

Paul: Oh, no. Oh, man.

Louis: And I was –

Paul: So, his skull had been cracked open.

Louis: Yes. It was cracked wide open.

Paul: Oh, my God.

Louis: And so I said, “Christine, Christine,” I said, “hey, leave him alone. Come on, come on, come on, come on.” So, she wouldn’t leave him alone. She was just grabbing him. And so she finally just stood up and said, “What are we gonna do?”

This man is a passenger. He gets out the car. He gets out of the car and walked right past James. He looked at me first and said, “Man, I don’t got nothing to do with this.” So, he walked off.

So, the driver, the driver came out and said, “How much money I can give you? How much I can give you?” And I said, “You don’t have to give me no money.” I said, “You gonna come down here to this store and we’re gonna call the paramedics.” And he was like, “Nah.” I said, I said “No.” I grabbed him. I said, “Man, I’m for real. You’re coming down here with me. You’re gonna leave this car, you’re gonna come down here with me.”

So, we walked like two blocks that road, and about that time people already called. You know, called the police, called 911 because they seen it. And I was just sitting at the store and like, “What the – what just happened? I was just talking to him.” You know, just it was bad. That hurt me to today, yes.

Paul: Oh, my God. Oh. And then he passed away right then and there, huh?

Louis: Yes, he passed away that day. To the night.

Paul: Oh, wow. Oh my God. Now, he was going to Tarleton State at the time?

Louis: Yes, yes.

Paul: Okay.

Louis: He was running like 47, 46 in the quarters.

Paul: Oh, wow.

Louis: He could roll.

Paul: Wow, wow.

Louis: Yes, he could roll.

Paul: What was his last name?

Louis: Yes, Silmon. James Silmon.

Paul: Man, I’m so sorry for your loss, man. I know it’s one of these things that just sticks in your head, and you know that movie, Forever and Ever.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: But it’s part of your story.

But you were able to move on in a positive manner.

I loved coaching Louis. He was unbelievable. Tremendous talent, had a tremendous work ethic, he was a gamer, he thrived on competition, hard to tackle, had the quickest feet you’ve ever seen, and balance, when he got the ball, people (in the stands) started standing up early. He could make a 2 or 3 yard run into something special.

Dave Campbell used to come watch him, they couldn’t believe what he could do.

It was phenomanly challenging for the other team to tackle him, he could cut on a dime and give you nine cent’s change!

He came from some pretty humble beginnings and life was tough for him, but you would never know it by his attitude, he came to school with a smile on his face.

He was our punter too, I remember telling him to punt the ball but he would tell me the rush was coming too fast. We both smiled. We knew that he wanted to keep the ball in his hands. He always wanted the ball!

I saw him one night against Georgetown, play was designed to go to the right, he took a pitchout and went left. They had two guys shoulder to shoulder in front of him, somehow he split them, spun out and they ran into each other and he ran for about a 60yd TD and there was a block made for him.

Those kinda things have nothing to do with coaching, some kids are just born with that kind of ability. We had several kids over the years like that but as far as being elusive, he was unmatched
I loved coaching Louis. He was unbelievable. Tremendous talent, had a tremendous work ethic, he was a gamer, he thrived on competition, hard to tackle, had the quickest feet you’ve ever seen, and balance, when he got the ball, people (in the stands) started standing up early. He could make a 2 or 3 yard run into something special.

Dave Campbell used to come watch him, they couldn’t believe what he could do.

It was phenomanly challenging for the other team to tackle him, he could cut on a dime and give you nine cent’s change!

He came from some pretty humble beginnings and life was tough for him, but you would never know it by his attitude, he came to school with a smile on his face.

Those kinda things have nothing to do with coaching, some kids are just born with that kind of ability. We had several kids over the years like that but as far as being elusive, he was unmatched.

Coach Johnny Tusa, longtime coach at Richfield, Jefferson-Moore and the renamed Waco High School. His teams went 181-87-2, made 19 playoff appearances, and guided the Lions to the Class 4A Division II state championship game in 2006 and the Class 5A Division II state semifinals in 1991. Tusa spent 4 years working with Grant Teaff at the American Football Coaches Association before rejoining Waco ISD as athletic director. He retired and returned to work with the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

Paul: Now let’s get back to your football story. You originally signed with Baylor, or did you sign with Colorado?

Louis: I signed with Baylor.

Paul: Was Colorado in the picture at all?

Louis: Yes sir. Yes sir. Yes.

Paul: Okay.

Louis: Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State. That’s where I shoulda went. This is one thing about my father, you know, I gotta say, we went through a lot, but one thing about my father, when he met the scout for Oklahoma State, he told me, said, “That’s where you need to be.” And to this day, like if I’da went to Oklahoma State and Prop 48, and had three years at Oklahoma State, I woulda broke all sorts of records, easy.

Paul: Oh, man, Prop 48, I forgot about that.

Louis: Yes. I coulda Prop 48, but I didn’t know anything, and nobody tell me nothing. I was just – I was out there on a limb. I didn’t – every school I went to, they lured some bull, you know, and I was like, I just didn’t know what to do. I mean, I didn’t have nobody.

Paul: Yes. It’s not like today, where you have all the people advising you.

Louis: Yes, it’s not like today. I was just by myself. And to be the number one running back in the nation, and I don’t know anything – I was like, oh, man. It was crazy.

Paul: Oh, yes, man. So, you signed with Baylor. Grant Teaff would’ve been the coach, right?

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: And who would’ve been your position coach there? Do you remember?

Louis: I don’t know. I don’t know. I would just – the reason I signed I signed with Baylor is because of Grant Teaff and Pete Fredenburg.

Paul: Okay. Oh, that’s right. Yes. I remember them, yes.

Louis: Yes. Two good men. But grades got me.

Paul: So when I talked to Coach Harms, he said that Don Pittman started talking to you.

Louis: Don Pittman. But first I went to Navarro JC. I rushed for 2,788 yards that season. I was coming out of junior college, like ranked number one, you know? So I mean, Texas A&M, Florida, Georgia Tech, they used to come down there, watch me run the 40. I ran a 4.29 on grass.

Paul: Holy cow.

Louis: So, I tell them “Man, I gotta go back to Baylor.” So, all of a sudden I get a phone call from somebody I didn’t know. I had to go up there to the coach’s office. I got a phone call, they say, “You gotta to go” – I had to go to Kansas. It wasn’t in the city. Fort Scott. I gotta go to Fort Scott, Kansas. I’m like, “What? For what?”

Paul: Yes, Coffeeville, yes.

Louis: Yes, yes. I went to – so, I was like, why – I just did two years at Navarro. Why do I gotta go to Kansas? So, to make a long story short, I went to Kansas, and I’m doing good up there, I was practicing with their football team, but I was just, I was getting ready to come back to Baylor. So, all of a sudden, all of the coaches at this school, they quit. They left in one night.

Paul: Wow.

Louis: Yes. It was me, and I don’t know if you remember this guy named Mario Bailey.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes.

Louis: Yes. It was me and Mario Bailey, we were the only two that was from out of state, so we had to live off campus. So, they was paying anything for us. But when the coaches left, they kicked us out the apartment.

Paul: Oh, my God.

Louis: I couldn’t go back to school. I was trying to call Baylor. I don’t know what’s going on. But no phone calls being answered. So, when I got back to Waco, I seen a guy named Keith Pittman that used to play with me at Waco High. And he was like, “Why ain’t you going to school, boy? You should go to Baylor, eat it up.”

I’m like, “Naw, man, I don’t know what’s going on.” I said, “I just gotta be careful.” I said, “Man, I don’t even know if I’m eligible to go anywhere.” And he was like, “You go to Baylor.” I said, “Man, Baylor ain’t answering my phone calls.” I said, “I don’t really want to go over there because I’m not disrespectful like that.” I said, “I don’t know what’s going on.” He’s like, “I’m gonna get you on the phone.”

He got me on the phone with Coach Pittman that night because Pittman came to pick me up. I was on the streets again. He came and picked me up from North Waco in the park. All I had was my jeans, my shoes, my jeans, and my shirt. He say, “Do we need to go somewhere and get something else?” I said, “Coach, this is all I got.”

Paul: Oh, man.

Louis: “It’s all I got, Coach.” I say, “You gone take me up there and feed me, I go to school, Coach, that’s all I want to do.” I just wanted to play. I just wanted to play football. So, I gotta go find me a place to lay down. I didn’t want to go back this hood and do nothing crazy for my life. So, I’m like, “If you crank this car up, Coach, I’m riding with you.” He came and got me the next day. He sure did.

Paul: And then you went right down to Kingsville.

Louis: I went right down to Kingsville. He had an apartment set up for me and everything, and I was like, I’m cool. Yes sir.

Paul: And Coach Harms loved that.

Louis: It like, it was so crazy, but like when I was sitting there talking to Coach Harms, Coach Harms saying – if I ask him, I say “Coach, if I make this team, I will do” – he say, “Do you know who you are?” I say, “What?” He say, “You’re Louis Fite.” Say, “Man.” He say, “Louis, it’s a blessing for me for you to even sit up in my office.”

Paul: Wow.

Louis: He say, “You’re good, Louis Fite.” He say, “I know what you can do. Just go into your apartment, everything is cool. You’re with this football team. We want you here.”

Paul: Okay.

Louis: I say, “Okay, Coach, okay.” Because I didn’t know if he wanted me there or not. Because I never took my talent as being thinking that I’m better than anybody, probably because I was homeless. I never had a team to just really clutch onto it, that I’m popular, I got a lot – I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.

Paul: You didn’t know you were Louis Fite.

Louis: I did not know. I didn’t, you know? I’m just a regular person. I just play football, you know?

Paul: And that speaks also to your character.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: You know, that you don’t have a super big ego that a lot of people get. I mean, to be a parade All American and things that you got there just in high school, a lot of people would have a big ego.

Louis: Oh my God. Yes sir, yes sir.

Paul: You know, we all have a little bit of ego in us, but man, that character, man, that comes out.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: That’s a great story. Coach Harms just loved you to death, just like Coach Tusa. He was so thankful that you came down to Kingsville to play for Texas A&I.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: Or was it Texas A&M Kingsville by then?

Louis: A&M Kingsville, yes sir.

Paul: Okay, all right. We lost our identity a little bit when that happened.

Louis: We sure did, yes. Yes.

Louis: Yes sir. I mean, it was some athletes down there. Oh my God.

It really is. So, let’s move on back to Texas A&I. Or, I’m sorry, Texas A&M Kingsville. Okay. So, he said to ask you about Portland State.

Louis: Portland State.

Paul: That was the NCAA Game of the Year, when Louis scored a touchdown, he said we’re doing a flip over the defensive back and landing on his feet in the end zone.

Louis: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I remember that. I remember that. It was like a pinch out. Like I come around the corner and I seen this guy coming. He was coming full speed, and I just charged right over him and land on my feet. I was up for the infield war.

Paul: And then he says, to follow that up, he says, the next week you tried it and you got penalized.

Louis: I sure did. I sure did. Against Northern Alabama. Yes. I flipped over a guy. But that was a crazy one. I flipped over this guy, landed on my feet, and kept running to the end zone, and the linebacker grabbed me like, “What did you just do, man?” He’s like, “I ain’t never seen” –

And they threw my whole – like, he say now, “You can’t do that.” I say, “I can’t flip over nobody?”

And so the referees was like out there like, “Can he do that?”

Paul: What did they penalize you for? What did they finally do?

Louis: I don’t know what they did. I think they gave me the touchdown, but I think they said it was like a celebration. Which I didn’t do no celebration.

Paul: No, you just – you just avoided the tackle. Yes.

Louis: Yes. I just avoided the tackle, you know? I don’t want to get hit in the stomach. He was coming at my stomach, so I flipped over his head and kept going.

Paul: Oh my God. Oh my God.

Louis: Yes sir. Because only what I – because I was in the game, he say, “What do you be thinking about out there?” I say, “I don’t know.” I say, “I just want to score a touchdown, Coach.”

Paul: Sounds like all that pounding might have taken a toll on your knees. Did you ever have them worked on?

Louis: I had three knee surgeries.

I just heal so fast. I don’t know. I remember the doctor telling me, like I came in after ACL surgery. In like three months, I came in. He was moving my leg. He was like, “You know, I don’t feel no movement in the ACL. You almost healed.” I said, “Well,” I said, “I been out there playing for basketball.” He said, “You been playing basket?” “Yeah,” I said. “I been playing basketball, running a little bit.” I say, “Making a little moves.”

He was like, he told me, saying “Son, you’re abnormal. I’ve never seen that.” I said, “Doctor, because my mom is – my grandmother was a full-blown Indian.”

Paul: Oh boy. She was – what kind of Indian was she?

Louis: She was Blackfoot.

Paul: Blackfoot. So, that’s like in the Dakotas, isn’t it?

Louis: The Dakotas, yes sir.

Paul: Oh wow. Wow.

Louis: Yes, yes.

Paul: Well, maybe they’ll give you some money for being the Indian casino.

Louis: I always – I see the guy that – I see the guy from scholarships because my mama told me, I’m like, “If you would’ve told me, I could’ve got some scholarships from just from my Indian heritage.”

Paul: Oklahoma.

Louis: Yes.

Paul: Oklahoma does, I know for sure. But anyway.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: You live and you learn, man, I’m telling you.

Louis: You live and you learn.

Paul: Life passes you by, but then it catches up with you.

Louis: It catches right back up with you.

Paul: So, going back to Texas A&M Kingsville, Coach Harms just loved you to death.

Louis: Yes sir. He was a great coach.

Paul: He said “Louis was a good guy, had excellent character, and did a nice job. It was a pleasure to have him.”

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: So, you get through with your Texas A&I career. How did – now, you graduated from TAMU-K?

Louis: No, I didn’t. I left in ’94. I should have, but I didn’t. I left in ’94.

Paul: You were there two years?

Louis: I was there two, but I had three years.

Louis: Anyway, they coulda gave me $100, I woulda lived. Because that cafeteria was a dream to me.

Paul: Oh, yes.

Louis: Man, I could go to see Miss Martinez!

Paul: Oh, yes.

Louis: Oh, my God. Man, Miss Martinez in the back, she used to be like, “Oh.”

Paul: “Here comes Louis. Okay, here’s the good stuff.”

Louis: “Here comes Louis.” Yes. You know, because she know I’m sit there eat, and they really took care of me down there. Like I say.

I remember Louis signed with Baylor out of High School but for some reason didnt get in. Then if you remember Don Pittman, my assistant coach, found Louis and signed him at A&I. So Louis ends up at A&I which was a good thing for us as Louis was a very good player.

I remember him particularly in a game against Portland State, which was one heck of a game, I think it was ‘NCAA Game of The Year’ all divisions because we dropped way behind and then made a huge comeback.

I remember Louis scoring a TD by doing a complete forward flip over a defender and landing his feet in the end zone. And then he tried again the next week and got penalized!

Louis was a great player for us and had great character. It was a pleasure to have him on the team.

College Hall of Fame Coach Ron Harms. Harms served on Gil Steinke’s staff at Texas A&I in 1974 and 1975 before becoming an assistant to Grant Teaff at Baylor for three years. Harms returned to Texas A&I in 1979. In his first season, he guided the Javelinas to a NAIA national championship. With Harms at the helm, the Javelinas captured ten Lone Star Conference Championships. All in all, he compiled a coaching record of 219–112–4.

Paul: So, let me go back here just a second here. So, who were some of your other teammates down there at Texas A&M Kingsville? Some of the best players.

Louis: Best players. Let me see. I’d say Kevin Doggins.

Paul: Oh, yes. Played for the Bucs and the Bears, oh, yes, he was good.

Louis: But the best, what I can say, I think Doggins and Jermaine Mayberry.

Paul: Oh yes, yes, yes. I remember him. 1^st rounder, played for Philly for a long time. I think the Saints after that.

Louis: Yes. But I’m gonna tell you right now, and this is serious talk, the best offensive lineman on that team was Jamie Martinez.

Paul: Oh, I remember him.

Louis: Man, Jamie could block, he could pull. He was an athlete, man. He was the best. And he never got a chance to go to the league, but I’m like, why Hymie didn’t go? You know what I’m saying? Like, Jamie was the best. He was skilled. He was like a technician. I always ran behind him.

Paul: Oh, man.

Louis: I ran behind him.

Paul: You guys had a great offensive line, I remember that.

Louis: Oh my God, we had a great one. You looked at it, it was three of them that played for Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They started.

Paul: I remember pictures.

Louis: George Floyd The guy that died when the police was standing on his head, he went to school with us.

Paul: I remember hearing that

Louis: Yes. His cousin name was Jeff Green.

Paul: Oh, really?

Louis: Yes. His cousin, Jeff Green. He was always at my apartment. Always. Because when I seen his face, I said, “Man, I know him.” And I would say to people like even before he came up that he woulda take that in Kings – I’d say, “Man, you went to Kingsville, man.”

Paul: Yes, he was.

Louis: I say, “He did.” I’d say, “I’m telling you, he was in my apartment.” They say when it came out, people came, all apologize me. I say, “I told you.”

Paul: Yes.

Louis: “I knew that guy.” Yes. I knew George Floyd.

Paul: Yes, he kinda went downhill a little bit after he left, didn’t he?

Louis: He did. Yes, he did. He started messing around with the rapper guys and stuff like that.

Paul: Yes. Some people you hang around with, man, they influence you way too much if you don’t have great strong character, you know?

Louis: Right.

Paul: That’s why I love to hear these coaches telling the same thing, always the same thing. “Louis had great character. Great character.”

Louis: Yes sir. Yes sir.

Paul: I mean, that, to me, I just knew I was gonna love talking to you.

Louis: Yes sir. Thank you, I appreciate it. Yes sir.

Paul: So, let’s talk about after Texas A&M Kingsville. You went to Chicago Bears.

Louis: I went there. Like they brought me up there, like I go through that. They brought me up there, but I never did touch the football field because got a bad attitude and impossible, you know? So, they never did let me really touch the football field too much.

Yes, yes. I was there with the old Cowboy Coach, Dave Weinstadt.

Paul: Yes.

Louis: So, this agent was there, and me and him start talking. He was like, “Man, I got some connections in the CFL.” So, I’m like, “Sir, all I want to do is play football, you know?” He’s like, “Well, they’re not gonna let you on the field.” He said, “They about to close out training camp. You’re probably gonna get cut.” He say, “What you want to do?” I say, “Whatever you want me to do, I’m gonna do.”

So, he sent me to Baltimore Stallions. They was like on their tenth game of the season, and so like I was out there with like 80 guys they was flying out. And like we was right there by the football team. The football team was practicing, we was at the end zone, you know? We was running 40s.

So, after I ran the 40, the coach was like, “Hey, take a minute and go get the jersey.” So, I was out there with a jersey on with my shoulder pads on, rapping with the offense, and them guys were still down there training. They were still down there training. They was still down there trying out for the team. I ran one 40. One 40, they said go get him dressed. I was like, thank you, thank you, I ain’t going home.

Paul: Thank you, God. Thank you, God.

Louis: I’m gonna get a paycheck. That’s what I need, was a paycheck.

Paul: Well, I would think the CFL was perfect for you with your speed, you know?

Louis: It was. It was. It was.

Paul: Wider fields and all that stuff, yes.

Louis: Yes sir. I had fun. I had fun in CFL. Yes sir.

After we won the Grey Cup, we won the Grey Cup again, we moved to Montreal the next year. Yes, and I played for Montreal the last two years.

Paul: Okay. That’s the Alouettes?

Louis: Yes, Montreal Alouettes.

Paul: Okay. So, why did you leave there?

Louis: I was just – I did three years, and I just – like before my last year, I was at the high school. You know, like I say, I know football, but I didn’t know the insides of it, of the coach’s office. So, when I went to the coach’s office and I heard some coaches say, “Well, I don’t too much care about this kid. No, man, speed up. Speed up your workouts.” Some of the kids don’t know what they’re doing, man. Just pass them by. That kinda got to me, you know?

I left it off with them, but it got to me because I was like, is this how they do it? Like, if the kid’s not good enough, they don’t care? They not even gonna try to train the kid to get better? Because you got some guy that just don’t know, but if I figure it out, I’m better than the guy in front of me. I just don’t know what’s going on, but I like getting the chance.

So, to me, those underachiever guys, those guys who’s willing to work and don’t want to be flashy, those the guys that’s – I don’t know too much, but if you teach me, Coach –

But it’s like everybody wanted to go to these All-American kids and leave these mediocre kids out. So, what I seen that, and I went to another school, I wanted to see. I know some guys, I go talk to them. “Come to the football field, and I go see.” And I seen them doing the same thing. They would not help out the kids that just wasn’t good enough, you know? That right there told me right there, I need to start training. I need to start training kids.

Because every guy that’s second and third string behind me, I made sure what I know, you know.

Paul: Right, right, right. Yes. So they can chip right in, your back.

Louis: Yes. So, if I get hurt, here you go, you’re stepping in, there’s no mistakes. So, I wasn’t scared to show people what I know. I wasn’t scared about that. But a lot of athletes like that, you know, they’re not gonna teach them everything. So, I mean, especially I’m just checking the second stream – those the guys that are looking for your job. But to me, it was a family, you know? If I know it, you know it. If I know the play, you know it. I show you how to read a play, I show you how to cut, I show you what the D’s are just setting up. Stuff like that.

Paul: Right, right, right. How to get that elbow at a certain point.

Louis: Right. How to do things right. So, after I seen that, I just said I’m gonna play one more season. My calling is really to help out these kids, and that’s what I been doing.

Paul: Right. So, was the pay pretty good in CFL?

Louis: It’s pretty good. My first year was $50,000. I think my third year – no, my second year was $75. I came out of it, my last contract was $109,000.

Paul: Yes. Nothing to sneeze at, yes.

Louis: For a guy like me, that’s generous. Nothing to sneeze at.

Paul: That bought a couple of burgers.

Louis: So, yes, like I say – yes. I could get cheese on it now, you know? So, I was just happy. I saved it, every one of my paychecks. I just did it right.

Paul: So, let me ask you something real quick here. Now, you were talking about your girlfriend at Texas A&M Kingsville.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: Is that your wife today?

Louis: No. She passed away.

Paul: Oh, I’m sorry to hear that.

Louis: Yes, she passed. She passed away off of a car wreck.

Yes, we was together all the way through CFL and everything. So, in 1999, she had a car wreck.

Paul: Oh my God.

Louis: Yes.

Paul: You had a lot of tragedy in your life.

Louis: Yes, yes, yes. That’s why I live one day at a time. I make sure I live the whole day because you’re not guaranteed that tomorrow.

Paul: Right, right. So, how did you meet your wife that you have today?

Louis: Well, I met her when I came to Fort Worth because I was throwing a football camp, and she’s a bigtime – she’s a technician, you know? She teach kids how to long jump, triple jump, kind of the same thing –

And she’s a heck of a volleyball coach. She’s like the winningest volleyball coach in Texas history, you know? So, she was out there at the football camps, you know? She seen me helping out the kids, and we just started talking and talking and talking. And she was like, “I don’t believe a man like with your stature, you’re out here, you’re not even taking no money from the kids.” I’m like, “No. I don’t do this to be rich. This don’t pay my bills.” I say, “I’m doing this so I can really help out these kids, you know?”

Paul: And that was your introduction.

Louis: And that was my introduction. Right there. We just clicked on without the – after that, we been together for 10 years now.

Paul: Wow. Well, congratulations.

Louis: Yes. Yes sir.

Paul: Wow. That’s incredible.

Louis: I think she would say 20 because I’m a little rough…

Paul: Well, you’re from Compton.

Louis: Right, right, right. I’m not really rough, she just tell me “You need to start charging. You need to charge these people more money.” And I look at her. And like ever since she be with me, she have seen so many kids come to the house and live. You know, homeless, because I take care of a lot of homeless kids, too.

Paul: Oh, wow.

Louis: So, she see a lot of homeless kids. Because she wasn’t used to that. She from San Saba, so she’s not used to that. And for me to bring in people and take care of them and give them stuff, she seen me stop and I take my shoes off where the kid walking down the street. I ask, “Hey, what size you wear?” “I wear size 10.” “Hey, I got some. Let me get you some.” And I give some brand new – you know, just anything I got on my foot.

I’m just – because that was me back in the day. I needed that, you know? I needed somebody to do that. I used to go – I couldn’t even tell you what kind of shoes I wore now because I never had a first day school clothes. I never seen a Christmas. I never had an average Thanksgiving. I never had that.

So, I do it for these kids now.

Paul: Right, right. So, how are you making a living these days?

Louis: Well, I do football camps right now, and I was coaching at Bishop Dunne High School, and they said I was doing too much. I was helping out the kids too much. So, I’m talking about the coaches were saying that. They was like – because you know, the kids fell in love with me. They Googled me up, they seen my background, they can see what kind of person I am. The coaches got kinda nervous that I’m coming for your job, but I just want to work. I just want to come and help out kids. I don’t care about no head coach job. To me, that’s just a label.

Paul: Yes.

Louis: A head coach is a guy that go out there and show his love for these kids and make sure these kids are getting scholarships because that’s gonna better their lives. That’s what we’re coaches for. We’re coaches to get these kids –

Paul: Well, they need a guide.

Louis: Right.

Paul: They need a guide. Somebody who can guide them through the things you had to learn by yourself.

Louis: Yes sir. Yes sir. And they got kinda nervous about it, so, you know, we – but this one school said I was gonna be the head coach, but I didn’t because I don’t have my education. I could’ve been a head coach last year for Bishop Dunne, but I just don’t got my education because of what Coach done did. And so it’s like, you know, like I’m not coaching no more, but I train kids, and I’m blessed to have a wife that’s willing to be there for me and pick up the pieces where I don’t have. So, like what I don’t got, she has.

Paul: If you’re lost, she kind of smooths you out.

Louis: Right, right. If I don’t got this, if I don’t got the money for this football camp, she’s gonna do it, you know?

Paul: That’s incredible.

Louis: Yes. Just like she been helping me out for so much. That’s why she’s telling me, like –

Paul: It’s a passion. You have a passion.

Louis: Yes, okay. Yes. And she’s like, okay, this year right now, you got 22 kids with Division 1 scholarships. And these were the kids that they gave up on. These were the kids that they say they can’t even play on my football team. I took over one year, trained them, and then made number one – I got the number one linebacker in the nation. I got the number one quarterback, I got the number one private school quarterback in the state of Texas, the number one inside wide receiver. It’s gonna go to – I mean, these kids was ganging up on – and I taught them from bottom to top, from bottom to top. And right now they’re some of the best kids in the state of Texas right there playing football.

Paul: That’s incredible.

Louis: So, that’s why she like, “Hey, now it’s time to charge.”

Paul: Yes, yes. But you gotta have a passion. That’s one thing I’ve heard from every coach, is he had the passion.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: Besides character, they said he worked his butt off, you know?

Louis: Yes sir, yes sir.

Paul: It’s a lot like what I do. I mean, these Memories of Texas Football, it’s all part of Memories Incorporated. It’s a nonprofit.

Louis: Right, right.

Paul: What we do is we simply talk to people like you and get the stories.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: I want your words. I’m not gonna reinterpret this interview. I’m gonna put down there almost word for word.

Louis: Yes sir.

Paul: You know, I’ll clean up any – we didn’t really have any bad language in here, but I will!

Louis: Oh no sir, no sir.

Paul: You probably know the guys like me, the hanger ons.

Louis: Yes. I’m telling you, I love them guys, man. I was always out front. I’m telling you, I didn’t care who it was. You went in the start or not a starter. If you knew me, we were out front.

Paul: Oh yes.

Louis: I never jazz it, at all.

Paul: Okay because you’ll be able to see this thing forever. It’s like your bio.

Louis: I appreciate it. Thank you.

Paul: John Fitzgerald Booty was our first one that was for the Football page.

Louis: You know, that’s my uncle.

Paul: Oh, he is? No way.

Louis: That’s my uncle.

Paul: Now, have you read my interview with him?

Louis: Yes, I been seeing those. I been seeing those. Yes. That’s my uncle. That’s my uncle.

Paul: I love John. He’s just such a positive guy, man.

Louis: Yes.

Paul: John. That’s the guy.

Louis: Robin, you know Robert Newhouse is my uncle.

Paul: No way!

Louis: Yes sir, yes sir. That’s my mom’s brother.

Paul: Oh, wow. Because we used to call him The Thigh.

Louis: The Thigh, yep.

Paul: The Thigh because he had the biggest thighs –

Louis: The biggest thighs.

Paul: I think I’ve ever seen on a human being, his thighs.

Louis: Yes, my legs is big, too.

Paul: Oh, really?

Louis: Mm-hm. I got some big thighs.

Paul: You played about 190, didn’t you?

Louis: More like 196, 185.

Paul: Okay. All right, man. Now, how tall are you?

Louis: 5-8.

Paul: 5-8, okay. So, you’re kinda stocky.

Louis: Yes, yes, yes.

Paul: Okay. Well, are you still 196?

Louis: Yes sir. Everybody say I still look the same way I did in high school.

Paul: Oh my God, man. I wish I did. I wish I did. I look at these old pictures when I was lifting heavy, man. Of course I had the massive chest and everything like that. But I think I had a 32 waist.

Louis: Oh, that’s – yes, yes.

Paul: Now it’s more like a 42.

Louis: Just a couple of pounds, that’ll be all right.

Paul: Oh my God, oh my God.

Louis: That would be all right.

Paul: Yes, man. Well, listen, Louis. thanks so much for your time. But before we go, I want to make sure folks that need training know how to get hold of you. Go to https://www.facebook.com/Louis-Fite-Building-Field-Leaders-972451592796106/ on Facebook or give him a call at 817-877-7052.

Louis: Thank you. Thank you so much

Paul: This is gonna be a great interview. You went through so much and still found the right path. I love it. Thank you, sir.

Louis was a gamer, really flashy. There were a lot of great backs in my time but only two others come to mind, Terry Upshaw from Lubbock Estacado and the great Johnny Bailey from Houston Yates.

5’8, 180 – 190, Fites was sculpted and totally fearless. He wouldn’t back down from a matchup on or off the field and wanted to walk, talk and look the part even now, he was impossible to outwork

He led quietly by example, had a great work ethic. Seems like a good character type guy, Fire ate slept and drank the part

He was on a Lubbock team and a few other I was on including the Corpus Christi Hammerheads and he was the talk of the league flipping over guys in the end zone.

Robert Watson, former TAMU-Kingsville and semi-pro player with Louis

I was privileged to be Louis teammate at A&I / A&M Kingsville in 93 & 94. We were a solid team not only winning the Lone Star Conference Championship, but we were NCAA Division ll National Championship contenders. (Lost both years to National champion North Alabama 27-25 in 93 in the semifinals & 16-10 in the Championship game).

Louis was the most electrifying player / athlete I had ever seen. His agility, speed, vision, and more importantly his work ethic was amazing. When Louis had the ball in his hands you knew something special could happen at any moment a cut here, a spin there, or even a 3 yard flip over a would be tackler into the end zone. That flip brought the school National prominence appearing on ESPN plays of the week, and sports caster Marv Albert played a clip of it on David Letterman on a bit of amazing sports clips from around the world. With all that being said the best thing about Louis was his humbleness and kind heart. Back in our time most studs were jerks and felt a sense of entitlement, not Louis he spoke and respected everyone, and was always ready to help and guide others. In my opinion Louis was a great player, but an even greater person.

David Lopez – Athletic Director- Head Football Coach of the Crystal City Javelinas – Crystal City Texas

The post LOUIS FITE, PARADE ALL AMERICAN first appeared on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

The post LOUIS FITE, PARADE ALL AMERICAN appeared first on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

THOMAS “HOLLYWOOD” HENDERSON

PAUL HECKMANN — Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:36:47 +0000

Thomas destroys the Denver offense in the Super Bowl

Thomas “Hollywood” Henderson

Dallas Cowboy’s Pro Bowl Linebacker, Texas Lotto winner, and today, a spokesman for sobriety

By Paul Heckmann, Executive Director Memories Incorporated

Paul Heckmann: Thomas can you tell me a little bit about growing up in Austin?

Thomas Henderson: Yeah. I was born in Austin in 1953. My mother was 21 days short of her 16th birthday, which meant that she had to run from an abortionist in order to have me. I didn’t learn about that until later in life.

Growing up, I remember being in school at 3 years old with kids that were not all black. I was over on UT’s campus in a Montessori school. I think that’s how you pronounce it.

My mother worked there, and so I started school real early. But I lived in the hood. My mother and my step father had four more kids, and it got really hard.

I didn’t meet my father until I became a Dallas Cowboy, and we were really too poor. Our bathtub was a dirty clothes hamper.

Paul Heckmann: Oh boy.

Thomas Henderson: And we didn’t have toilet paper most of the time. You can imagine what kind of nightmare that was.

Paul Heckmann: I remember showing me where you used to live there back around 1990. It was pretty much a lean-to on the back of a house.

Thomas Henderson: If I were to take you in my garage right now and you saw 60 rolls of toilet paper, you would know just where it came from.

So growing up in Austin was a great experience. I was loved. I was disciplined, but again I had a little thug in me, which doesn’t hurt you over your lifetime. You get to protect yourself and you have very little fear and anxiety because basically, I can’t be intimidated. There’s some value to being thuggish.

A young Thomas Henderson, courtesy Thomas Henderson

Paul Heckmann: Tell me about school in Austin

Thomas Henderson: I started at LL Campbell Elementary. Then I went to a junior high at the University of Texas called UJH, University Junior High, for my seventh grade year. That’s an interesting thing too because I was in the top 10% of my elementary and that is the only students they were accepting. In 1966, this is like really when I didn’t know what integration meant but I was part of some of the original integration in Austin school districts. So I’m 13 and I’m meeting Mexicans and white people, and I am socializing, and having lunch, and being taught with different races whereas I had had some exposure already, but it was very interesting to go from an all-black elementary school. Of course my earlier, like pre-K stuff, I didn’t see color anyway. So, I have had a very interesting life.

Paul Heckmann: No kidding. Did you play football at Anderson after that?

Thomas Henderson: I played football at UJH. I played football at Kealing Junior High, and I played my sophomore year at Anderson. I was a tailback, and I was little upset I wasn’t on the varsity because a couple of my buddies were on varsity, but I was on the B team.

Paul Heckmann: And then Oklahoma City. How did that come about?

Thomas Henderson: Yeah. I had one of those nights where there was no toilet paper and I said, okay, all right, I gotta get out of here.

We had a twin bed with two little boys, and I was many years older than one and 12 years older than the another. These little guys were making a mess of the mattress and the sheets. I had a grandmother in Oklahoma City, and so I made a call. I asked her ‘Can I come live with you? I gotta get out of here’. And my closest friend had been shot right next to me and killed, so it was about time.

Paul Heckmann: So sorry to hear that Thomas.

Let’s move on to Oklahoma City. I believe you went to school up at Douglas. Now you were playing tailback down in Austin. Did you play tailback again at Douglas?

Thomas Henderson: I couldn’t play football my junior year because there’s a rule, and I didn’t know this was a rule until it hit me in the face. If you move from one border state, Texas to Oklahoma, a border state, without your parents, you’re ineligible to play football for a year. So, I played basketball my junior year at Douglas High School, and I worked at the Post office at night.

Paul Heckmann: What did you do at the post office?

Thomas Henderson: I loaded trucks, Spiegel catalogs, all the heavy items, and the bags of mail. I drove trucks back to the yard, driving 18 wheelers with just a driver’s license, but I was pretty good at my job. I loved my job because I got a car and I was making a car payment, and insurance, and going to high school. I took welding. I’m also a certified welder. They asked me did I want to film the games on Friday nights, and I said absolutely. So, I was a sad 17-year-old, not able to play my junior year, but I filmed every game that season.

Paul Heckmann: So, you now have reached Douglas High your senior year. Tell me about that.

Thomas Henderson: Well, the football coach had been watching me and he took me over to the scales. I was 210 and I was 6’2” and he asked me what position do you play? I said quarterback.

Paul Heckmann: Of course.

Thomas Henderson: Coach says, throw a post. I threw the worst duck you’ve ever seen.

Paul Heckmann: And then you found your calling.

Thomas Henderson: Yes, defensive end. I made All-City, first team, All-District first team, and I was honorable mention All-State.

Paul Heckmann: Considering it was a one year thing, that’s pretty amazing. So you are done with football and you have now graduated from Douglas.

Thomas Henderson: No, I haven’t. Let’s go back a bit.

Paul Heckmann: Okay.

Thomas Henderson: The only thing that kept Thomas Henderson back is he flunked a geometry class at Anderson High School in Austin.

We were getting ready for graduation. I got a call from the principal’s office to go see the counselor, and I went to see the counselor and she said, according to your transcripts, you need a geometry to graduate. I’m sad to tell you, I’m sad to tell you that you can march but you gotta go to summer school. I went home and told my grandmother, and she immediately took me out to Putnam City, and registered me for summer school geometry.

And when I turned 18 in March of 1971, I had to go down to selective service and register, and the Vietnam War was still raging in ’71.

Paul Heckmann: Oh yes.

Thomas Henderson: I went from 1A, which means going to Vietnam to 1S, which is school, and that’s the only thing that kept me from going to Vietnam, me flunking geometry.

Paul Heckmann: That’s quite amazing actually.

Thomas Henderson: My life has been that way.

Paul Heckmann: I seem to remember you were going to go into the Air Force.

Thomas Henderson: I was, because it was an alternative to the Army drafting me. At that time I didnt know what that geometry class did for me, so I went straight down to the Air Force after I got that letter from the Army that was basically saying, hey partner, you’re 1A and get ready for a physical buddy.

I went to the Air Force and took the test. Of course, they said what do you wanna be? I said I wanna be a pilot. I wanna fly. Listen to this. With my testing, they go you might be able to do this. I’ve always been a bit smarter scholastically than people would think. That was a summer to always remember.

Paul Heckmann: Okay. You were about to join the Airforce, but you didn’t actually finish the signup for it.

Thomas Henderson: Well, all over the news about that time was the plane that went down at Wichita State, they lost most of their football team.

I couldn’t wait to find out how to get a letter to that school. I’m gonna go through summer school. I can go to that school. I went and took the ACT, and I was ready to go, I got a Dear John from Wichita State. They don’t have anybody on the football team, and they don’t want me. I thought it was over right there. So, I went on to some school and I passed the Geometry and the Air Force was in my rear view mirror.

Thomas at Langston. Courtesy Thomas Henderson

On a Tuesday, I was talking to a buddy and he said man, why don’t you go up to Langston? I’m thinking, ‘okay’ and I caught a ride up to Langston, Oklahoma because I had wrecked my car. I got to Langston University on a Tuesday. The coach was surprised. He said ‘Oh man, I saw you before. You’re a good player. I thought Oklahoma State would get you.’

I go ‘Really, yeah.’ So, I get to Langston on a Tuesday and that Wednesday, the starting defensive end broke his ankle and so I was on the starting lineup to play Kentucky State. I had four sacks and about 12 tackles, and that guy never got his job back.

Paul Heckmann: Oh no. Now, you were still a walk on at this point?

Thomas Henderson: I was a walk on at Langston University. That’s not like saying I’m a walk on at Alabama of course.

Paul Heckmann: When did you get your scholarship there?

Thomas Henderson: I never got a scholarship at Langston. I was always on financial aid. You have to remember in ’71, my mom is a maid. My mother was making minimum wage, $1.25 maybe at the time.

There’s no biological father at all. So, I was on financial aid for four years at Langston. There were 33 scholarships, but it was a very political thing, and I had figured out that I was gonna do better on financial aid than on scholarship with all the rules of the scholarships.

Paul Heckmann: Sure.

Little All American Team for Thomas, courtesy Thomas Henderson

Thomas Henderson: Around my junior year when I was consensus All-America and NAIA All-America, and Little AP All-America, my coach finally said, do you want a scholarship?

Paul Heckmann: And you say, ‘I’m doing just fine.’

Thomas Henderson: I played four full years at Langston University, and I was never on scholarship.

Paul Heckmann: Best years of your life too, weren’t they?

Thomas Henderson: Yes, they were.

Paul Heckmann: There is something special about the ‘smaller’ (not Power 5) schools. Speaking as a Texas A&I Javelina, I understand completely.

So, 1975 comes around and the NFL draft comes up. Before you were drafted, what were you hearing about the teams that wanted you?

Thomas Henderson: Not much. You know, I got a letter from the Rams and the Cowboys. I don’t know if you remember Tank Younger?

Paul Heckmann: Oh yes. Big star with the Rams.

Thomas Henderson: Paul “Tank” Younger played at Grambling. He was one of the first African-American players to play in the NFL. He was a scout and he worked in the front office of the Rams. I think he was one of the first to work for the organization. He had come to Langston twice.

You know, Red Hickey and Gil Brandt had both come to Langston. I had run track my junior year so they had noticed. I ran a 9.5 100 yard dash

Paul Heckmann: Wow.

Thomas Henderson: Now, we weren’t running meters during those years.

Paul Heckmann: That is still blazing fast.

Thomas Henderson: I ran a 4.4 forty in a cow pasture. I actually ran a 4.5 barefooted. I didn’t have the equipment. I mean this is not bragging. This is like we simply didn’t have the equipment.

Paul Heckmann: I understand.

Thomas Henderson: Tom Landry didn’t want to waste a No. 1 draft pick on a guy from a HBCU. That’s ‘historically black colleges and universities’.

So, Red Hickey and Gil Brandt challenged him and said he’s the best player on the board. So, Landry went with his scouts and picked me 18th in the first round on January 29, 1975. I was in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere and the phone rang. My roommate answered and he said, hey man, it’s the Cowboys. The Cowboys are on the phone. There was no watch party. My family wasn’t dressed up like we were going to church. There were no big party. There was nothing except them calling you. I got on the phone and it was Gil Brandt, and he said we just picked you in the draft, 18th, in the first round. He says can you get to the airport. I said, well, yeah, probably. He goes okay. This was about 10:00 in the morning. He hollered back at his secretary. Hey, what time is the nonstop coming from Oklahoma City and she goes 3:30. He said can you be there at the airport by 3:00. I go yeah, I can be there by 3:00 and that was my draft day.

Paul Heckmann: A far cry from the greenroom they have today.

The Dirty Dozen Cowboy draft, Photo courtesy Ryan Bush

So you are now part of arguably the best draft the Cowboys ever had, the Dirty Dozen. Who were some of the other folks that you were drafted with?

Thomas Henderson: Oh man, Randy White, Burton Lawless, Randy Hughes, Scott Laidlaw, and Percy Howard who was a free agent, Rolly Woolsey from Boise State, Pat Donovan. Even Mike Hegman was drafted that year, but he stayed one more year at Tennessee State. I’m getting a little Alzheimer’s here. I can’t run down the whole draft list. Mitch Hoopes was the punter of that group. So, 12 rookies made the team that year.

Paul Heckmann: That’s absolutely incredible. I don’t think we’ll ever see a draft like that again.

Thomas Henderson: You know, when you look back at all that, it was a tremendous time for Tom Landry and the Dallas Cowboys. By the time I became a starter, we were the No. 1 defense in ’77 and ’78.

Paul Heckmann: I think D. D. Lewis was one of your line backing buddies.

Thomas Henderson: Yep and Bob Breunig. He was another one of the rookies that year. So, in ’77 it was Breunig, Lewis, and Henderson. We were playing some good ball. We had the No. 1 defense two years running.

Paul Heckmann: That was an incredible time for Dallas.

The Triplets, LB trio in the mid 70s, courtesy Thomas Henderson

Thomas Henderson: If I could go back and change anything, I’d shut my mouth with Coach Landry. Look at what happened to the Cowboys in ’80, ’81, ’82, ’83 without me. I just think that what I brought to the team and to the defensive scheme would have just put it over the top, you know, made it better.

Paul Heckmann: One thing that you did that was absolutely incredible in that day was you returned kicks. I still remember seeing a linebacker returning a kickoff and then all of a sudden, you’re back there and all of a sudden you scored a touchdown on a return, and then to top it off you dunked it over the goalpost.

Thomas Henderson: Well, you know, I did that in my rookie year in 1975 against the Cardinals. I went 97 yards, and I didn’t know what to do with the ball. So, I went and dunked it over the goalpost.

Paul Heckmann: First person to ever do that I believe.

Thomas Henderson: Absolutely. The first person in the NFL to ever do that, and then I did it against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in ’77, and then in ’78, I picked off a 68 yard interception against the Rams. It was the fourth quarter, and I didn’t have any left in the tank, and so I finger rolled over there. That grass is different from an Astroturf.

Paul Heckmann: So, I got a question for you. Who gave you the Hollywood moniker?

Thomas Henderson: I think it was Robert Newhouse who was teasing me because I came to work one day in a limo with a fur coat on.

Paul Heckmann: I remember the fur coat.

Thomas and his fur coat! Courtesy Thomas Henderson

Thomas Henderson: I had been out all night. So, I came to work with a fur coat in a limo. So, it was either ‘Damn Fool’ or ‘Hollywood’.

Paul Heckmann: You went with the latter. Makes sense to me.

So, who were some of your best friends on the team?

Thomas Henderson: You know, all of them. I loved all of the guys I played with. Playing football for the Dallas Cowboys was a very intimate affair. Charlie Waters, Bob Breunig, Randy Hughes, Too Tall, Harvey Martin, Jethro Pugh, Rayfield Wright, John Fitzgerald, Roger Staubach, so many, Tony Dorsett and all the others.

Me and Preston really kind of went at it because we were competitive, and so I’m not sure we loved each other that much.

Paul Heckmann: Preston Pearson?

Thomas Henderson: Yes. Bruce Huther didn’t like me but overall, I loved all those men. Lee Roy Jordan – are you kidding me? I mean I just loved these guys and I’ll tell you this Harvey Martin, Larry Cole, I mean, they’re great. I’ll tell you what. I loved Charlie Waters like he was brother.

When I wrote my book Out of Control, I didn’t snitch on anybody. I didn’t tell who was having affairs on their wives. I didn’t tell who smoked marijuana. I didn’t tell who did cocaine. I didn’t tell who was on steroids or pain medications. I didn’t tell who supplied the Black Mollies every Sunday for every last one of us. So, when I wrote the book Out of Control, it solidified that when I came back to Dallas and asked teammates to come talk about my life story, everybody came because I had surprised them that I wasn’t mad at anybody, that I was a friend even in my darkest day.

Paul – (I added links at the bottom of the Interview for purchasing ‘Out of Control’)

Paul Heckmann: Oh yeah. I’m gonna move away from the NFL for just a second because about ’78 and ’79 was about the time that Wyetta was a Playboy Bunny over at the Playboy of Dallas.

Thomas Henderson: Yes.

Paul Heckmann: I remember you telling me that you were also a judge there for the bunny search.

Bunny Wyetta and Eddie Rabbitt. Courtesy Dallas Morning News and SMU deGolyer Library

Thomas Henderson: That’s true, but I met Wyetta before all that ever happened. I met Wyetta Boswell in Seattle. Actually, the first game played in that stadium in Seattle was the Cowboys versus the Seahawks. She went to school with Too Tall and Mike Hegman. I met her in ’76 in Seattle and in the off season of ’76, she moved to Dallas.

Paul Heckmann: I see.

Thomas Henderson: So we had been dating for a while, maybe a year, before the Playboy Club came to Central Expressway.

Paul Heckmann: So, how did you become a judge for the bunny search?

Thomas Henderson: I was Thomas Henderson.

Paul Heckmann: Ha! That’s enough for me.

Thomas Henderson: I’ll tell you one thing. Let’s go deeper than that. I had another girlfriend named Carol, and she was trying to be a Bunny as well. Wyetta just couldn’t stand her.

Paul Heckmann: Oh boy.

Thomas Henderson: Oh boy. That’s right. So, Wyetta sabotaged her chances of being a bunny.

Paul Heckmann: Ah, the bunny fangs. Yeah.

Thomas Henderson: Bunny hate, you know. I tried to get both of them in there.

Paul Heckmann: It is what it is.

Thomas Henderson: It is what it is.

Paul Heckmann: I remember you telling me that you and Too Tall actually own some nightclubs.

Thomas Henderson: Oh yes. I had a little bit of a partnership out in South Dallas at a club called Plush Pup. I had a piece of that. I actually made more money in the club business than I did working for the Cowboys.

Then we had Playmakers Plaza off of Knox and Henderson that was extremely successful because I would have a theme. We’d have a party for Too Tall and we’d have a party for Billy Joe DuPree, Tony Dorsett. We’d have a different party for a different player every week on a Thursday night, $10.00. It was outrageous in ’76, ’77, ’78, and you couldn’t go out. Ten bucks and no return entry. We did well. I did well in the club business. I actually made more money in the club business than I did in my Dallas Cowboy contract.

Paul Heckmann: Wow, that’s amazing. About this time was also when the Super Bowl came up I believe the one with Dallas and Pittsburgh. Probably one of the most famous things that have ever happened in the Super Bowl history was the rhetoric between you and Terry Bradshaw. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Thomas Henderson: Well, let’s go back. We played in three super bowls during my time. So, Super Bowl X we played the Pittsburgh Steelers and I ran the opening kickoff in that game. Then we won the Super Bowl in New Orleans against the Denver Broncos in Super Bowl XII and then was the Super Bowl XIII January of 1979. The background of that story was that Gil Brandt was talking to me about Terry Bradshaw, and he knew a little bit about Bradshaw’s relationship with the head coach of the Steelers that he screamed at him a lot and called him stupid in front of the team. Then he told me a story that Terry Bradshaw really wanted to go to LSU but he ends up going to Louisiana Tech. I’m sitting there wondering why are you giving me a history lesson on Terry Bradshaw, and finally he said he didn’t score very well on the ACT.

Thomas demonstrating his spelling skills! Courtesy ESPN and OTL

So, he was feeding me this stuff and then I sort of came to the conclusion. I had taken the ACT, and the SAT, and I’d done very well. Believe it or not, Thomas Henderson was a good student. I came up with that line calling Bradshaw dumb. I said he couldn’t spell cat if you spotted him the C and the A but that was all sort of poetry from failing the ACT, him wanting to go to LSU as opposed to Louisiana Tech. That was by accident or by design, but that’s how I came up with that line.

Paul Heckmann: So, also about this time, you were starting to do a lot of cocaine.

Thomas Henderson: Yes. A lot.

Paul Heckmann: I believe you also told me you were doing cocaine on the sidelines using Vicks Nasal Inhaler, I believe.

Thomas Henderson: I had to. I had burned a hole through my septum. I didn’t cut up my cocaine very good for it to go down smoothly. I started just snorting rocks. I did whatever I could push up in there and I developed a hole in my nose, and it ached. It gave me migraine kind of headaches. The only way that I could kind of keep it around was to put it in a Vicks Inhaler, and I started doing that late ’78. In other words, I wasn’t even really trying to get high. It was just my nasal passage was sore and about every four or five days, this giant scab would come out and then it would be freshly ready for me to cake more coke in it. It was so bad that when I went to my first rehab in ’81, I had surgery. I had surgery to close a big hole in my nose.

Paul Heckmann: That is some serious addiction. We will come back to that.

Tell me about your relationship with Coach Landry because there was a little bit of love and hate in there, wasn’t there?

Thomas Henderson: I never hated the man. He didn’t understand me. I didn’t understand him. I tended to talk back. I would say stuff like what do you mean by that and it would stun him. It was like a private talking to a general. When Too Tall was drafted, he took a picture with Landry. When Randy White was drafted, he took a picture with Landry. Landry never took a picture with me. When I went up to the Cowboy office, when I came to Dallas, he didn’t come out of his office to say Hi. I resented that.

Paul Heckmann: Was that intentional on his part?

Thomas Henderson: I don’t know. I had a giant beard and nobody said a word to me in those apartments up on Forest Lane. We get to Thousand Oaks and he tells me, you’ve got to shave that beard off and I told him, ‘I’m not shaving my beard. What’s that got to do with playing football?’ So, that was my first run in with him.

Coach Landry on a radio show with Frank Gleiber. Found in a box at SMU deGolyer Library

And then we were traveling and he said you’ve got to have a sports coat and a tie. So, I put on a sports coat, a white shirt, and a shoestring. I found a shoestring that I made a tie and I tied it around.

Paul Heckmann: So, you’re rubbing it in.

Thomas Henderson: Then he wrote like a five page, typed, memorandum of what a tie is. So, I went and bought ties but I still just tied them in knots. You know, okay, you wanna a tie and I just put like two knots. So, I bugged him a little bit. I tell you what he did for me. He coached me. He really taught me how to play the edge. He loved defense. He even let me do some things that he didn’t let anybody else do.

I remember a moment when we were in a meeting and I kept doing something on I think it was the flex defense, but it was a flex weak, and I kept doing something besides what the defense was designed to do. But I kept making the play because I would see something, and I would react to the play. Landry said this in front of the entire defense, he had never said it before, and he hadn’t said it since. We were in a dark room. There’re 20 of us in there. Landry had a way of really getting a little red light on a screen. Look at you. See where your hips are right here. See where your feet are. You’re and so he’d be doing that.

So I had been doing something and it was bugging him. This stunned the whole room. He said, ‘Thomas, now look. This is not my defense right here. See this move you’re making right here. This is it my defense’, but then I’d make like a tackle for a 4-yard loss. He looked at it four or five times. He goes, you know what Thomas, ‘I don’t like you doing this but I’m gonna let you do it’. You could’ve like slapped everybody in the room. It was like what? What do you mean you’re gonna let him do it?

Paul Heckmann: Oh man. Did you ever come in and kind of heal the relationship with Coach Landry?

Thomas Henderson: I did. It was a while because I never did live in Dallas again. When I left Dallas in ’79, I never came back. I haven’t been back since (except for events), but I had been communicating with Coach Landry early in my recovery from drugs and we exchanged letters. I made some amends, and he actually came to my 10-year-sober celebration in Austin and spoke, and I have it on film. I’m currently working on a documentary that’s gonna be very powerful but yeah.

As a matter of fact, I did something so funny with him. We’re at Barton Creek, and there’s a golf tournament. So, me, Too Tall, Rayfield, Harvey and Randy White, and a couple more Cowboys were over there. Landry walks over to us and he goes, ‘Wassup’? I said, ‘Wassup? What the f**k?’ and I just fell over laughing. Landry knows the term Wassup? What? (Thomas laughing).

Paul Heckmann: Oh man. That’s healing right there.

So, let’s go back here to the end of your Cowboy career. How did it end from your perspective?

Thomas Henderson: Well, it was awful. We were playing the Redskins and me and Landry had had a bad year anyway. He wasn’t very kind to me. He never acknowledged that I just had a daughter. He never asked me what my kid’s name was. That off season, I had contracted Hepatitis B from a big old plate of seafood I ate in Hawaii, while we were out there doing the super teams. So, I spent three weeks in Baylor Hospital in isolation. So, I came to training camp barely weighing 200 pounds.

So, ’79 was a really rough time for me in training camp. I had a hiatal hernia and I had to sleep sitting up. I had a tough training camp health wise. I wasn’t healthy. I went from hepatitis to hiatal hernia and we broke training camp, or the end of the preseason or something, Landry called me up for a meeting. I go in and he goes ‘Okay Thomas, if you miss any more practices, you’re not gonna start.’

So, then I got the flu like fourth or fifth game of ’79. We were playing the Steelers. I’m barking like a dog. I had been in the hospital where people who came to see me, I thought they were going to the moon because I was so messed up with that infectious hepatitis. So, I come to work one day and I am barking like a dog. My nose is running, not from cocaine, just from this virus I had, and I’m coughing like I’m gonna throw up my tonsils. The doctor happened to be there. He gave me some antibiotics and told me to go home. He says, ‘go home before you give this to everybody in here. Go home.’

I go home, and I come to work the next day better. He gave me a boatload of antibiotics, and we go to Pittsburgh. I’m getting ready for the game and Landry, with all the things in the world that he could work on, comes over to my locker and says ‘You know our deal. So, you’re not starting today,’ and I lost it. I got up and confronted him in his face and I told him if I don’t start today, I’m not playing. I just didn’t understand the way he was treating me. I had had these health issues that year from hepatitis B, to hiatal hernia, to the flu. I even think I had an ankle injury. I mean it was a tough year, and I gave him a few choice words, and he walked away and came back, and said okay, you win this one. That was basically the end of my career right there with him.

Paul Heckmann: Then at some point, you were traded to San Francisco. Is that correct?

Thomas Henderson: No, I didn’t accept the trade. I mean they got a draft choice for me, but I quit. I retired. I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t know the legal ramifications. I didn’t know this or that. I just refused to go to San Francisco. So, I just quit. So, I sat out the rest of that year. It was the 11th week anyway.

Paul Heckmann: This was 1979 season?

Thomas Henderson: Yeah.

Paul Heckmann: Okay. Did you ever go to San Francisco to play?

Thomas Henderson: Yeah. I went to training camp in San Francisco in 1980 and made the team, and played about five games, hurt my neck. I think I broke my neck out there the first time. I was doing way too much. I was smoking crack, and I was a mess. Bill Walsh caught wind of it and that was that.

So one day, what’s his name? His last name is Owens. He came to my house with my shoulder pads, and helmet, and my shoes, and a big check, and said ‘they let you go’.

Paul Heckmann: Wow.

Thomas Henderson: Before he walked away, he said ‘Call the Oilers. They’re interested’. So I called Bum Phillips. He said there’s a first class ticket for you. So I got on an airplane and left Wyetta and my daughter in Redwood City, California, and I flew to Houston. I played the rest of the season with the Oilers and went to the playoffs against the Raiders. But that team didn’t like me at all. I had no friends in that locker room.

Paul Heckmann: Why did you not have any friends in that one? Was it just a personality conflict or the fact that you’re coming in mid-season?

Thomas Henderson: No, I just think the Oilers hated the Cowboys period.

Paul Heckmann: That I can understand.

So, you’ve gone through this season with Houston. Like you say, things didn’t exactly work out for personalities. I believe you went to Miami after that didn’t you, with the Dolphins?

Thomas Henderson: I did. I went to rehab. The Cowboys played a role in that. You know, John Wooden called me and says ‘Get your butt down here. I wanna meet you’, and he met me on Northwest Highway in a parking lot. He says ‘Everybody knows what you’re doing.’ He said ‘Come on, cut it out. You’re gonna kill yourself. Stop it.’ and he gave me a card for rehab in Scottsdale, Arizona.

Scottsdale. Turned out it was a mental institution.

Paul Heckmann: Oh boy.

Thomas Henderson: Besides getting the nose surgery, which I got while I was in there, they let me out to go have surgery; it was really a psychiatric hospital. It didn’t really do me any good with my thinking about my use of drugs. So, I get out of there and a friend of mine drove my Mercedes over to Scottsdale and brought me some weed.+

So, in the parking lot pulling out from the rehab, I smoked the biggest joint you’ve ever seen going down the highway.

I thought to myself, ‘Yeah, I think I’m gonna make it.’

Paul Heckmann: So you got out of that rehab and now you’re heading over to Miami to the Dolphins.

Thomas Henderson: Yeah, I went back to Dallas and Shula had a connecting flight. He wanted to see me. I went out there blitzed to see him. He didn’t notice that I was high.

So I went out to see him at the airport and he said, ‘Yeah. We’d love for you to come on to training camp.’ So, I went down there and God blessed me as a good football player. I made that team easy. I had caused a little bit of a problem because they had traded for Brudzinski from the Rams, and they had Gordon on the other side, and they asked me would I play inside. I go ‘Absolutely not.’ I was gonna start. I didn’t know which side, and then I broke my neck in the last preseason game of 1981.

Paul Heckmann: And that was the end of your NFL career.

Thomas Henderson: Right there, yes sir.

Paul Heckmann: Just like that. Boom.

Thomas Henderson: You know, I know how lucky I am. I should’ve died. I broke cervical vertebrae 1. It burst, the top vertebrae where your heartbeat and your breathing is. So, not only should I have died, I should not be upright. I should be paralyzed from the neck down. I should be just a head attached to something. God has had his hand on me for a long time, and I finally realized that about 35 years ago when I cut out the crap and got my life together.

Paul Heckmann: At this point, you had surgery on our neck?

Thomas Henderson: No, they put me in a prehistoric body cast. I looked like a brother in a bowl. I looked like a bowl of baby spinach with my afro sticking out from my neck, and my arms sticking out. It was awful.

Paul Heckmann: How long were you like that?

Thomas Henderson: Six months. I smelled like a Billy goat for six months.

Paul Heckmann: Oh man, oh gosh. So, you get out of this cast and I know that about 1983 really all hell broke loose but with that hell that came, you really ended up with a new lease on life. Can you kind of tell me first about the hell and then how that really redefined you at that point?

Thomas Henderson: Yeah. The phenomenon of the thing called the blackout is where my life was at that time. So, if I was to try to tell you what happened, I’d be lying. I know that I ended up smoking crack with a couple of girls and I don’t remember meeting them. I don’t remember smoking with them. I don’t remember anything. I was in a total blackout because that’s where my addiction had taken me. So, I woke up in the Long Beach Jail accused of sexual assault while smoking crack. I’m still trying to figure that one out. So, it was extremely embarrassing.

I had a lawyer friend actually come extract me from my pipe. I bailed out of jail, and went back to my apartment, and got some more coke. A lawyer buddy of mine wouldn’t stop knocking on my door, and came and got me, and took me to Orange, California to a place called the CARE Unit. I met this Dr. Stone and Dr. Joseph Pursch. For seven months, I just learned how to do life differently and I was faithful, and clean and sober. Then I had to do 28 months in the California Department of Corrections. There was plenty of cocaine, and heroin, and marijuana there too, but I refrained.

I’ve been sober 35 years.

Paul Heckmann: That’s quite amazing. It really is. All the kudos to you my friend.

The next time you and I talked, around ’90. I was down in San Diego working as Chief Purser/Hotel Manager on a cruise ship that was in drydock just under the Coronado Bridge. Myself and the Captain had direct phones to us. I pick it up and ‘Hey Paul, it’s Thomas.’

I remember thinking it was someone playing a prank on me so I told you to give me your number and I would call you back. I had told my folks about my drinking and they remembered that I knew you and had read a story about you getting sober and somehow got hold of you.

Thomas and Paul out in Costa Mesa, California with Thomas’s trusty pickup. Photo courtesy Paul Heckmann

We talked, I took a day off an drove up to Costa Mesa to see you. And we reminisced, told each other our horror stories, you told me the story you noted above, said that if I really wanted to get sober you had a bed waiting for me at Sierra Tucson. So I walked away from a job I was really good at making a lot of money – and after 7 years, that turned out to be the last time I ever stepped foot on a cruise ship.

On Jan 30th 2020, I will have 30 years with nary a drop to drink. And I owe you a big part of that.

Thomas Henderson: That was all you man.

Paul: 4 months of rehab later, I move back to Dallas, rooming with old buddy Warren Wilkes who have been sober for a couple of years by then. You were in the process of moving to Austin, so I drove down to help unload you Uhaul.

So the next part of your life. You get clean and sober, living the ‘boring life’ and doing pretty well at it. Then all of a sudden, you win the lottery.

Thomas Henderson: Yep.

Paul Heckmann: $28 million I think it was.

Thomas Henderson: Yeah.

Paul Heckmann: In the Texas lottery. I remember thinking at that time going, man I am so glad he is so straight at this particular point in his life because otherwise, he wouldn’t have made it.

Thomas Henderson: Yeah, that would’ve come with a coffin if I’d of won it at any other time in my life. I can report that I still have some of that money, and I live a good life. I do have regrets and some things I would do differently if I could do it over but I can’t. But I’m grateful to God and my family and friends, and the program that I have remained in these 35 years for helping me because I didn’t have enough sense to do this by myself. So, life is good. I’m working on a documentary that’s gonna be out within a year. It’s gonna be a big documentary on my life story.

Paul Heckmann: Hey, Thomas man, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. I really do and Thank you so much for your time, sir.

And before we end this, congratulations on your Doctorate from Langston. Very impressive.

Thomas: Thank you so much!

“Out of Control – Confessions of an NFL Casulty” by Thomas Henderson available at Amazon and other
https://www.amazon.com/Out-Control-Confessions-NFL-Casualty/dp/0671663267

Barnes and Noble: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/out-of-control-thomas-henderson/1121660149

Thomas Henderson is available for speaking engagements. Send him a tweet at @hollywoodhend

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DALLAS COWBOY’S TIMELINE

PAUL HECKMANN — Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:21:25 +0000

Dallas Cowboys Timeline

by Paul Heckmann, Executive Director. Memories Incorporated

Credit given to:

Dallas Morning News, DallasCowboys.com, Pro Football Reference, Texas State Historical Society, ESPN, Wiki, UTA Digital Libraries, an innumerable number of Cowboy fan sites, Dallas Public Library, and several hardcore Cowboy fans.

This is a ‘living document’ and will be updated as new information is proven and added

1959

Clint Murchison signs Don Meredith to a 5 year personal service contract with his marine company Tecon to lock him up for the proposed Dallas Steers franchise. In November 1959, they also signed Don Perkins to a personal-services contract for a $1,500 bonus and a $10,000 salary
The Steers name was changed to the Dallas Rangers after a short time.
Murchison doesn’t have the votes against the powerful Redskins franchise that have the South locked up.
The early Dallas Cowboys brain trust — Tom Landry, Bedford Wynne, Tex Schramm and Clint Murchison. Photo by Brad Bradley. Courtesy Dallas Morning News
Clint and Bedford Wynne find out “Hail to the Redskins” is not owned by Washington, and in a nutshell purchase it and trades it to the Skins for their vote.
The founding investors were Clint Murchison, Jr. (45%), John D. Murchison (45%), Toddie Lee and Bedford Wynne (Director and Secretary) (5%) and William R. Hawn (5%).
Clint Murchison Jr. becomes the new team’s majority owner. His first order of business was to hire Tex Schramm as General Manager and then Gil Brandt as Player Personnel Director
December 22, 1959 Clint Murchison hires Tom Landry as Head Coach

1960

Tex Schramm and Tom Landry, 1960. Courtesy TSHA Handbook. Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

January 28, 1960. Dallas Rangers awarded NFL Franchise for the astronomical sum of $600,000
- March 13 1960. Dallas Rangers expansion draft (regular draft was in November) Each of the 12 NFL teams had to submit a list of 9 players. Dallas could only choose 3 of the 9 players. They chose:
  – Baltimore Colts: RB L.G. Dupre, P/WR Dave Sherer, DE Ray Krouse
  – Chicago Bears: DT Don Healy, RB Jack Johnson, RB Pete Johnson
  – Cleveland Browns: WR Frank Clarke, RB Leroy Bolden, RB Ed Modzelewski
  – Detroit Lions: WR Jim Doran, C Charlie Ane, LB Gene Cronin
  – Green Bay Packers: RB Don McIlenny, DE Nate Borden, S Bill Butler
  – Los Angeles Rams: CB Tom Franckhauser, T Bob Fry, G Duane Putnam
  – New York Giants: QB Don Heinrich, G Buzz Guy, G Al Barry
  – Philadelphia Eagles: TE Dick Bielski, T Jerry DeLucca, LB Bill Striegel
  – Pittsburgh Steelers: WR Ray Mathews, DT/T Ray Fisher, RB Bobby Luna
  – San Francisco 49ers: LB Jerry Tubbs, WR Fred Dugan, DE John Gonzaga
  – St Louis Cardinals: DT Ed Husmann, LB Jack Patera, T Bobby Cross
  – Washington Redskins: LB Tom Braatz, C Joe Nicely, RB Doyle Nix
  – At this time the NFL also assigned the rights to 1960 NFL draft picks Don Meredith (who had been drafted by the Chicago Bears) and Don Perkins (drafted by the Baltimore Colts) to the Cowboys for a couple of future draft picks. Dallas had to give their third-round and ninth-round choices in the 1962 NFL draft to the Bears and Colts respectively.
March 19, 1960 – Rangers officially changed their name to the Cowboys. They had planned on using Dallas Rangers, but the baseball team in the area decided not to disband and since they wanted a clear and separate identity.
After not being able to participate in the 1960 NFL draft during their inaugural year of existence, the Dallas Cowboys traded their first round (who became future 4x Pro Bowler Norm Snead) and sixth round (#72-Joe Krakoski) draft choices in the 1961 NFL Draft to the Washington Redskins in exchange for Eddie LeBaron, convincing him to come out of retirement to become the franchise’s first starting quarterback. He started 10 of 12 games in 1960, with rookie Don Meredith and Don Heinrich starting the other two. He also scored the Cowboys’ first-ever touchdown in their first exhibition game against the San Francisco 49ers, on August 6 in Seattle. He set a record for the shortest touchdown pass in league history, with his throw to receiver Dick Bielski from the 2-inch line against the Redskins on October 9, 1960.

“When I took the job in 1960, I wasn’t worried in the least, mainly because I didn’t plan to stay in football. I had earned a business degree at Texas and had just added a degree in industrial engineering at Houston. I felt it was just a matter of time before I found a good job.”

—Tom Landry, Sporting News, 8/15/81

April 1960: Cowboys set up headquarters at 4425 N. Central Expressway on the second floor from the first-floor tenant Dallas Automobile Club. The Cowboys’ box office is on the first floor, season-ticket prices were $27.60 for six games.

Tex Schramm, Bedford Wynne, Clint Murchison and Tom Landry in front of the first team headquarters at 4425 N Central Expressway. This would be in 1960, Bedford was a partial owner. He is Angus Wynne Jr’s brother. Toddie Lee Wynne was also part owner. Courtesy Pinterest

Second-floor workers consisted of general manager Tex Schramm, Brandt, coach Tom Landry, three assistant coaches, a public relations director, a couple of secretaries and a receptionist.

July 9, 1960: Rookie training camp in Oregon starts

Cowboys held the first part of regular training camp at Pacific University in Forest Grove, Ore. The second half of camp was at St. John’s Military Academy in Delafield, Wisconsin, a site handpicked by Milwaukee native Brandt which turned into a disaster as it hadn’t been updated in decades and the rooms were built for youngsters, not very large men

1960-62 seasons: Cowboys primarily practice at Burnett Field, home of minor league baseball’s Dallas-Fort Worth Rangers; The offense met in the first-base clubhouse, the defense in the third-base clubhouse. The training room consisted of a couple of tables and ice tubs crammed into the stadium’s women’s restroom.

Some practices are held at DISD-owned Cobb Stadium when Burnett floods, which technically makes it the Cowboys second practice field

1960 Season. Ticket sales are slow. “The league has come a long, long way from the days when we used to pay players $5,000 a year and didn’t pay till Tuesday to make sure the checks cleared.” Gil Brandt

Sept 10 1960. Cowboys play first game in their history at Cotton Bowl.

Tom Franckhauser becomes the first Cowboy to ever touch the ball, taking the opening kickoff, which he also did in their preseason.

Tom Frankhauser, the first Dallas Cowboy to touch the ball. Ran back the opening kickoff in both preseason and regular games, 1960. Courtesy Tom Frankhauser, RIP my friend

1960-1971: Cowboys use Cotton Bowl for NFL games

Cowboys end 1960 with no wins and a single tie, 0-11-1

1961

Training camp moved to St. Olaf College in Northfield, Minnesota
Cowboys add a box office at 1509 Elm Street, tickets can also be purchased at Reynolds-Penland and Jas. K. Wilson stores.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1961	1	Bob Lilly HOF	13	DT	TCU
1961	2	E.J. Holub	16	LB	Texas Tech
1961	3	Stew Barber	30	T	Penn St.
1961	4	Sonny Davis	44	LB	Baylor
1961	7	Art Gilmore	86	B	Oregon St.
1961	8	Don Talbert	100	T	Texas
1961	9	Glynn Gregory	114	E	SMU
1961	11	Norris Stevenson	142	B	Missouri
1961	12	Lowndes Shingler	156	QB	Clemson
1961	13	Don Goodman	170	B	Florida
1961	14	Billy Shaw HOF	184	G	Georgia Tech
1961	15	Julius Varnado	198	T	San Francisco St.
1961	16	Jerry Steffen	212	B	Colorado
1961	17	Everett Cloud	226	B	Maryland
1961	18	Randy Williams	240	B	Indiana
1961	19	Lynn Hoyem	254	G	Long Beach St.
1961	20	Jerry Morgan	268	B	Iowa St.

Early shot of 6116 N Central, aka Expressway Tower, aka Cowboy Tower. Arrow pointing to the approximate position of the Dallas Cowboy’s third practice facility. Courtesy Squire Haskins Special Collections, UTA Libraries

1962

Cowboys owner Clint Murchison Jr. buys property at Yale Boulevard and North Central Expressway from underneath the AFL’s Dallas Texans which included a practice field and field house.
The Texans are forced to move to a new field a few blocks away for the 1962 season while the Cowboys move to their 3rd practice field. Today this would be directly below where Murchison built the Cowboys Towers at 6116 N Central, approximately where the former Magnolia Hotel and current Beeman Hotel sits at 6070 N Central and 6060 N Central are today.
Training camp moved to Northern Michigan University in Marquette, Michigan
Cowboys are approached by a faction of IBM that wants to get into the NFL accounting areas via their computer systems. Instead Schramm flips it on them and asks them to see what they can do about developing a scouting system. A young Salam Qureishi joins forces with Gil Brandt to create pro sports first version of ‘Moneyball’. They didnt call them ‘analytics’ back then, instead the used the moniker, ‘predictables’

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1962	2	Sonny Gibbs	18	QB	TCU
1962	3	Bobby Plummer	39	T	TCU
1962	6	Donnie Davis	74	WR	Southern
1962	6	George Andrie	82	DE	Marquette
1962	8	Ken Tureaud	102	B	Michigan
1962	10	John Longmeyer	130	G	Southern Illinois
1962	11	Larry Hudas	144	E	Michigan St.
1962	13	Bob Moses	172	E	Texas
1962	14	Harold Hays	186	LB	Southern Miss
1962	15	Guy Reese	200	DT	SMU
1962	16	Bob Johnston	214	T	Rice
1962	17	Ray Jacobs	228	DT	Howard Payne
1962	18	Dave Cloutier	242	DB	Maine
1962	19	Paul Holmes	256	T	Georgia
1962	20	Amos Bullocks	270	HB	Southern Illinois

Video courtesy WFAA and SMU Jones collection

1963

1963-1989: Training camp moved to California Lutheran in Oxnard

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1963	1	Lee Roy Jordan	6	LB	Alabama
1963	3	Jim Price	34	LB	Auburn
1963	4	Whaley Hall	48	T	Mississippi
1963	7	Marv Clothier	90	G	Kansas
1963	10	Rod Scheyer	132	T	Washington
1963	11	Ray Schoenke	146	G	SMU
1963	12	Bill Perkins	160	HB	Iowa
1963	13	Paul Wicker	174	T	Fresno St.
1963	14	Lou Cioci	188	LB	Boston Col.
1963	15	Jerry Overton	202	DB	Utah
1963	16	Dennis Golden	216	T	Holy Cross
1963	17	Ernie Parks	230	G	McMurry
1963	18	Bill Frank	244	T	Colorado
1963	19	Jim Stiger	258	HB	Washington
1963	20	Tommy Lucas	272	E	Texas

1964

Dallas Cowboy coaching staff, 1964. Dick Nolan, Red Hickey, Tom Landry, Jim Myers, Ermel Allen. Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.
February 5, 1964: Clint Murchison signs Tom Landry to the longest contract in sports history, a 10 year agreemen
June 22, 1964: Cowboys move to their second, albeit temporary headquarters, 5738 N. Central Expressway (between Mockingbird and Yale, approximately where Mockingbird Station is now), with plans to move again in 1966 to a nearby office tower being constructed by Murchison. The temporary office is about 3 blocks south of the practice field.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1964	1	Scott Appleton	4	DT	Texas
1964	2	Mel Renfro HOF	17	DB	Oregon
1964	4	Perry Lee Dunn	45	RB	Mississippi
1964	6	Billy Lothridge	73	DB	Georgia Tech
1964	6	Jim Curry	82	E	Cincinnati
1964	6	Jim Evans	83	WR	Texas-El Paso
1964	7	Bob Hayes HOF	88	SE	Florida A&M
1964	8	Al Geverink	101	HB	UCLA
1964	9	Jake Kupp	116	G	Washington
1964	10	Roger Staubach HOF	129	QB	Navy
1964	11	Bob Crenshaw	144	G	Baylor
1964	12	Johnny Norman	157	E
1964	13	Jerry Rhome	172	QB	Tulsa
1964	14	Jim Worden	185	LB	Wittenberg
1964	15	Bill Van Burkleo	200	B	Tulsa
1964	16	Paul Cercel	213	C	Pittsburgh
1964	17	Bud Abell	228	LB	Missouri
1964	18	Theophile Viltz	241	DB	USC
1964	19	H.D. Murphy	256	B	Oregon
1964	20	John Hughes	269	LB	SMU

1965

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1965	1	Craig Morton	5	QB	California
1965	2	Malcolm Walker	19	C	Rice
1965	4	Jimmy Sidle	47	RB	Auburn
1965	4	Bob Svihus	53	T	USC
1965	5	Roger Pettee	61	LB	Florida
1965	6	Sonny Utz	75	FB	Virginia Tech
1965	7	Brig Owens	89	DB	Cincinnati
1965	8	Russell Wayt	103	LB	Rice
1965	9	Jim Zanios	117	FB	Texas Tech
1965	10	Gaylon McCollough	131	C	Alabama
1965	11	Jethro Pugh	145	DT	Elizabeth City St.
1965	12	Ernie Kellermann	159	DB	Miami (OH)
1965	13	Jack Schraub	173	E	California
1965	14	Garry Porterfield	187	DE	Tulsa
1965	15	Gene Foster	201	RB	Arizona St.
1965	16	Doug McDougal	215	E	Oregon St.
1965	17	Mitch Johnson	229	T	UCLA
1965	18	Marty Amsler	243	DE	Evansville
1965	19	Marv Rettenmund	257	HB	Ball St.
1965	20	Don Barlow	271	T	Kansas St.

1966

Lamar Hunt had moved the Dallas Texans to Kansas City in 1963 as the NFL was simply too strong, the current owners were too wealthy. And then the Giants approached Bills kicker Pete Gogolak and they signed him and all hell broke loose. The AFL started to fight back, signing current NFL players like Roman Gabriel to futures contracts. The bidding wars were causing contracts to run too high. Secret meetings authorized by Pete Rozelle were held between old friends, Lamar Hunt and Tex Schramm. On June 8 1966, the AFL-NFL merger was announced. Common schedules came into play in 1970
Cowboys began an NFL-record streak of 20 consecutive winning seasons. That streak included 18 years in the playoffs, 13 divisional championships, five trips to the Super Bowl and victories in Super Bowls VI and XII.
Cowboys won Division title but lost in the NFL championship to Green Bay
Dec. 19, 1966: Thirteen days before hosting the Packers in the NFL Championship Game, Cowboys move into their third headquarters in the new offices at 6116 N. Central Expressway, taking over the 11th floor of a 15-story, $7 million Expressway Tower built primarily for Murchison’s marine construction company, Tecon. The office overlooks the team’s practice field.
Clint Murchison Jr, died in 1986, founded the Dallas Cowboys, holds a football that was used in the 1966 Super Bowl game. This was shot in his Dallas office. Copy and photo courtesy David Woo and the Dallas Morning News

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1966	1	John Niland	5	G	Iowa
1966	2	Willie Townes	22	DE	Tulsa
1966	5	Walt Garrison	79	RB	Oklahoma St.
1966	6	Bob Dunlevy	86	E	West Virginia
1966	7	Arthur Robinson	100	E	Florida A&M
1966	8	Don Kunit	116	HB	Penn St.
1966	9	Darrell Elam	130	E	West Virginia Tech
1966	10	Mason Mitchell	146	HB	Washington
1966	11	Austin Denney	160	TE	Tennessee
1966	12	Les Shy	173	RB	Long Beach St.
1966	12	Craig Baynham	176	HB	Georgia Tech
1966	13	Ron Lamb	190	RB	South Carolina
1966	14	Lewis Turner	206	HB	Norfolk St.
1966	15	Mark Gartung	220	T	Oregon St.
1966	16	Tom Piggee	236	HB	San Francisco St.
1966	17	George Allen	250	T	West Texas A&M
1966	18	Steve Orr	266	T	Washington
1966	19	Byron Johnson	280	T	Central Washington
1966	20	Lou Hudson	296	FL	Minnesota

1967

June 1967: Cowboys lease 3.5 acres near Forest Lane and Abrams Road and begin construction of a training facility and practice fields, which they move to in October and this becomes their fourth practice facility
Cowboys won Division title but lost in the NFL championship to Green Bay
George Allen was coaching the Los Angeles Rams in 1967 when the first Allen-Dallas dustup occurred. Cowboy exec Tex Schramm said a suspicious vehicle had been parked near the team’s practice field. Alert and inquisitive, he alleged a license plate check traced the car rental to Johnny Sanders, head scout of the Rams.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1967	3	Phil Clark	76	DB	Northwestern
1967	4	Curtis Marker	103	G	Northern Michigan
1967	6	Sims Stokes	157	WR	Northern Arizona
1967	7	Rayfield Wright HOF	182	T	Fort Valley St.
1967	8	Steve Laub	208	QB	Illinois Wesleyan
1967	9	Byron Morgan	234	DB	Findlay
1967	10	Eugene Bowen	260	HB	Tennessee St.
1967	11	Pat Riley	285	FL	Kentucky
1967	12	Harold Deters	312	K	North Carolina St.
1967	13	Al Kerkian	338	DE	Akron
1967	14	Tommy Boyd	364	G	Tarleton St.
1967	15	Leavie Davis	390	DB	Edward Waters
1967	16	Paul Brothers	416	QB	Oregon St.
1967	17	George Adams	442	LB	Morehead St.

1968

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1968	1	Dennis Homan	20	WR	Alabama
1968	2	Dave McDaniels	45	WR	Miss. Valley St.
1968	3	Ed Harmon	71	LB	Louisville
1968	4	John Douglas	97	LB	Missouri
1968	5	Blaine Nye	130	G	Stanford
1968	6	D.D. Lewis	159	LB	Mississippi St.
1968	7	Bob Taucher	185	T	Nebraska
1968	8	Frank Brown	211	DT	Albany St.
1968	9	Ken Kmiec	241	DB	Illinois
1968	10	Ben Olison	266	FL	Kansas
1968	11	Ron Shotts	292	RB	Oklahoma
1968	12	Wilson Whitty	321	LB	Boston Univ.
1968	13	Carter Lord	347	FL	Harvard
1968	14	Ron Williams	373	DB	West Virginia
1968	15	Tony Lunceford	402	K	Auburn
1968	16	Larry Cole	428	DE	Hawaii
1968	17	George Nordgren	454	RB	Houston

1969

Cowboys win the Capital Division. They lose to the Cleveland Browns in the Eastern Championship 38-14

Bill Bragg’s Press Passes for 1969 when he ran cameras for CBS. Bill donated those passes to Memories Incorporated. Thanks Bill, RIP

You want to know about ‘luck of the draw’? As the AFL-NFL merger approached in 1969-70 The AFC teams quickly decided on a divisional alignment but the NFC had a lot of infighting. They had gone to 4 team divisions in 1967 but nobody wanted to be in the same divisions as the Cowboys or Vikings. Everyone wanted the Saints as they were the worst team in football The final five proposals were as follows: PLAN 1: East: NYG, PHI, WAS, ATL, MIN; Central: CHI, GB, DET, NO; West: LA, SF, DAL, STL. PLAN 2: East: NYG, PHI, WAS, MIN; Central: ATL, DAL, NO, STL; West: LA, SF, CHI, GB, DET. PLAN 3: East: NYG, PHI, WAS, DAL, STL: Central: CHI, GB, DET, MIN; West: LA, SF, ATL, NO. PLAN 4: East: NYG, PHI, WAS, STL, MIN; Central: CHI, GB, DET, ATL; West: LA, SF, DAL, NO. PLAN 5: East: NYG, PHI, WAS, DET, MIN; Central: CHI, GB, DAL, STL; West: LA, SF, ATL, NO. These five combinations were written up on slips of paper, sealed into envelopes and put into a fish bowl (other sources say a flower vase), and the official NFC alignment ‘Plan 3’ was pulled out by Rozelle’s secretary, Thelma Elkjer.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1969	1	Calvin Hill	24	RB	Yale
1969	2	Richmond Flowers	49	DB	Tennessee
1969	3	Thomas Stincic	68	LB	Michigan
1969	3	Halvor Hagen	74	G	Weber St.
1969	5	Chuck Kyle	125	LB	Purdue
1969	6	Rick Shaw	152	FL	Arizona St.
1969	7	Larry Bales	180	FL	Emory & Henry
1969	8	Elmer Benhardt	205	LB	Missouri
1969	9	Claxton Welch	230	RB	Oregon
1969	10	Stuart Gottlieb	258	T	Weber St.
1969	11	Sweeny Williams	283	DE	Prairie View
1969	12	Bob Belden	308	QB	Notre Dame
1969	13	Rene Matison	336	FL	New Mexico
1969	14	Gerald Lutri	361	T	Northern Michigan
1969	15	Bill Justus	386	DB	Tennessee
1969	16	Floyd Kerr	414	DB	Colorado St.
1969	17	Bill Bailey	439	DT	Lewis & Clark

Clint Murchison Jr., Tex Schramm, and Mayor R. Dan Matkin survey progress at Texas Stadium in Irving. Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107. Courtesy TSHA Online

1970

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1970	1	Duane Thomas	23	RB	West Texas A&M
1970	2	Bob Asher	27	T	Vanderbilt
1970	2	Margene Adkins	49	WR	Henderson JC
1970	3	Charlie Waters	66	DB	Clemson
1970	3	Steve Kiner	73	LB	Tennessee
1970	3	Denton Fox	75	DB	Texas Tech
1970	4	John Fitzgerald	101	C	Boston Col.
1970	6	Pat Toomay	153	DE	Vanderbilt
1970	7	Don Abbey	179	LB	Penn St.
1970	8	Jerry Dossey	205	G	Arkansas
1970	9	Zenon Andrusyshyn	231	P	UCLA
1970	10	Pete Athas	257	DB	Tennessee
1970	11	Ivan Southerland	283	T	Clemson
1970	12	Joe Williams	309	RB	Wyoming
1970	13	Mark Washington	335	DB	Morgan St.
1970	14	Julian Martin	361	WR	North Carolina Central
1970	15	Ken DeLong	387	TE	Tennessee
1970	16	Seabern Hill	411	DB	Arizona St.
1970	17	Glenn Patterson	438	C	Nebraska

1971

January 17, 1971 – Cowboys go to Superbowl, losing to Baltimore on a last second TB in Superbowl V.
October 24, 1971: After playing their first two home games in 1971 at the Cotton Bowl, the Cowboys opened Texas Stadium in Irving

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1971	1	Tody Smith	25	DE	USC
1971	2	Ike Thomas	51	DB	Bishop
1971	3	Sam Scarber	69	RB	New Mexico
1971	3	Bill Gregory	77	DE	Wisconsin
1971	4	Joe Carter	80	TE	Grambling St.
1971	4	Adam Mitchell	103	T	Mississippi
1971	5	Ron Kadziel	129	LB	Stanford
1971	6	Steve Maier	155	WR	Northern Arizona
1971	7	Bill Griffin	181	T	Catawba
1971	8	Ron Jessie	206	WR	Kansas
1971	9	Honor Jackson	233	DB	Pacific
1971	10	Rodney Wallace	259	T	New Mexico
1971	11	Ernest Bonwell	285	DT	Lane
1971	12	Steve Goepel	311	QB	Colgate
1971	13	James Ford	337	RB	Texas Southern
1971	14	Tyrone Covey	363	DB	Utah St.
1971	15	Bob Young	389	TE	Delaware
1971	16	John Brennan	415	T	Boston Col.
1971	17	John Bomer	440	C	Memphis

1972

January 16 1972 Cowboys win their first Superbowl 24-3 over the Miami Dolphins in Superbowl VI
Landry finally sheds the ‘bridesmaid’ title. Bullet Bob Hayes, Big Cat Rayfield Wright raise Landry on their shoulders

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1972	1	Bill Thomas	26	RB	Boston Col.
1972	2	Robert Newhouse	35	RB	Houston
1972	2	John Babinecz	39	LB	Villanova
1972	2	Charlie McKee	52	WR	Arizona
1972	3	Mike Keller	64	LB	Michigan
1972	3	Marv Bateman	78	P	Utah
1972	4	Tim Kearney	83	LB	Northern Michigan
1972	4	Robert West	90	WR	San Diego St.
1972	4	Charlie Zapiec	93	LB	Penn St.
1972	6	Charles Bolden	156	DB	Iowa
1972	8	Ralph Coleman	208	LB	North Carolina A&T
1972	9	Roy Bell	234	RB	Oklahoma
1972	10	Richard Amman	260	DE	Florida St.
1972	11	Lonnie Leonard	286	DE	North Carolina A&T
1972	12	Jimmy Harris	312	WR	Ohio St.
1972	13	Jean Fugett	338	TE	Amherst
1972	14	Alan Thompson	363	RB	Wisconsin
1972	15	Carlos Alvarez	390	WR	Florida
1972	16	Gordon Longmire	416	QB	Utah
1972	17	Alfonso Cain	442	DT	Bethune-Cookman

1973

Redskins spies are noticed by hotel employees at the hotel overlooking the Cowboy Forest lane practice field.
In our interview with Charlie Waters, he told me that the Cowboys moved their practice during Redskin week to the Cotton Bowl making it the fifth practice facility.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1973	1	Billy Joe DuPree	20	TE	Michigan St.
1973	2	Golden Richards	46	WR	BYU
1973	3	Harvey Martin	53	DE	Texas A&M-Commerce
1973	4	Drane Scrievener	98	DB	Tulsa
1973	5	Bruce Walton	126	T	UCLA
1973	6	Bob Leyen	151	G	Yale
1973	7	Rodrigo Barnes	176	LB	Rice
1973	8	Dan Werner	204	QB	Michigan St.
1973	9	Mike White	229	DB	Minnesota
1973	10	Carl Johnson	254	LB	Tennessee
1973	11	Gerald Caswell	282	G	Colorado St.
1973	12	Jim Arneson	307	G	Arizona
1973	13	John Smith	332	WR	UCLA
1973	14	Bob Thornton	360	G	North Carolina
1973	15	Walt Baisy	385	LB	Grambling St.
1973	16	John Conley	410	TE	Hawaii
1973	17	Les Strayhorn	438	RB	East Carolina

1974

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1974	1	Too Tall Jones	1	DE	Tennessee St.
1974	1	Charley Young	22	RB	North Carolina St.
1974	3	Danny White	53	QB	Arizona St.
1974	3	Cal Peterson	72	LB	UCLA
1974	4	Ken Hutcherson	97	LB	West Alabama
1974	4	Andy Andrade	101	RB	Northern Michigan
1974	5	John Kelsey	126	T	Missouri
1974	6	Jimmy Bright	151	DB	UCLA
1974	7	Raymond Nester	176	LB	Michigan St.
1974	8	Mike Holt	205	DB	Michigan St.
1974	9	Bill Dulin	230	T	Johnson C. Smith
1974	10	Dennis Morgan	255	RB	West. Illinois
1974	11	Harvey McGee	280	WR	Southern Miss
1974	12	Keith Bobo	309	QB	SMU
1974	13	Fred Lima	334	K	Colorado
1974	14	Doug Richards	359	DB	BYU
1974	15	Bruce Craft	384	T	Geneva
1974	16	Gene Killian	413	G	Tennessee
1974	17	Lawrie Skolrood	438	T	North Dakota

1975

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1975	1	Randy White HOF	2	DT	Maryland
1975	1	Thomas Henderson	18	LB	Langston
1975	2	Burton Lawless	44	G	Florida
1975	3	Bob Breunig	70	LB	Arizona St.
1975	4	Pat Donovan	90	T	Stanford
1975	4	Randy Hughes	96	DB	Oklahoma
1975	5	Kyle Davis	113	C	Oklahoma
1975	6	Rolly Woolsey	148	DB	Boise St.
1975	7	Mike Hegman	173	LB	Tennessee St.
1975	8	Mitch Hoopes	200	P	Arizona
1975	9	Ed Jones	226	DB	Rutgers
1975	10	Dennis Booker	252	RB	Millersville
1975	11	Greg Krpalek	278	C	Oregon St.
1975	12	Chuck Bland	304	DB	Cincinnati
1975	13	Herbert Scott	330	G	Virginia Union
1975	14	Scott Laidlaw	356	RB	Stanford
1975	15	Willie Hamilton	382	RB	Arizona
1975	16	Pete Clark	407	TE	Colorado St.
1975	17	Jim Testerman	434	TE	Dayton

1976

January 18 1976 In Superbowl X Cowboys lose to Steelers 21-17 on one of the worst no-calls in Superbowl history

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1976	1	Aaron Kyle	27	DB	Wyoming
1976	2	Jim Jensen	40	RB	Iowa
1976	2	Jim Eidson	55	G	Mississippi St.
1976	3	Duke Fergerson	73	WR	San Diego St.
1976	3	John Smith	75	RB	Boise St.
1976	3	Butch Johnson	87	WR	California-Riverside
1976	4	Tom Rafferty	119	C	Penn St.
1976	5	Wally Pesuit	151	G	Kentucky
1976	6	Greg McGuire	181	T	Indiana
1976	7	Greg Schaum	186	DE	Michigan St.
1976	7	Dave Williams	208	RB	Colorado
1976	8	Henry Laws	236	DB	South Carolina
1976	9	Beasley Reece	264	DB	North Texas
1976	10	Leroy Cook	290	DE	Alabama
1976	11	Cornelius Greene	317	QB	Ohio St.
1976	12	Charles McShane	346	LB	California Lutheran
1976	13	Mark Driscoll	374	QB	Colorado St.
1976	14	Larry Mushinskie	402	TE	Nebraska
1976	15	Dale Curry	430	LB	UCLA
1976	16	Rick Costanzo	458	T	Nebraska
1976	17	Stan Woodfill	486	K	Oregon

1977

Forrest Gregg, Guard/Tackle becomes the first Dallas Cowboy in the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1977	1	Tony Dorsett HOF	2	RB	Pittsburgh
1977	2	Glenn Carano	54	QB	UNLV
1977	3	Tony Hill	62	WR	Stanford
1977	3	Val Belcher	81	G	Houston
1977	4	Guy Brown	108	LB	Houston
1977	5	Andy Frederick	137	T	New Mexico
1977	6	Jim Cooper	164	T	Temple
1977	7	Dave Stalls	191	DE	Northern Colorado
1977	8	Al Cleveland	208	DE	Pacific
1977	8	Fred Williams	221	RB	Arizona St.
1977	9	Mark Cantrell	248	C	North Carolina
1977	10	Steve DeBerg	275	QB	San Jose St.
1977	11	Don Wardlow	305	TE	Washington
1977	12	Greg Peters	332	G	California

1978

Thomas Henderson destroys Denver QB in Super Bowl. This is shortly before the new NFL rules which said you were not allowed to touch QBs
January 15 1978. Dallas destroy the Broncos 27-10 in Superbowl XII
Lance Alworth, Flanker, NFL Hall of Fame Class of 1978

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1978	1	Larry Bethea	28	DT	Michigan St.
1978	2	Todd Christensen	56	TE	BYU
1978	3	Dave Hudgens	84	DT	Oklahoma
1978	4	Alois Blackwell	110	RB	Houston
1978	5	Rich Rosen	138	G	Syracuse
1978	6	Harold Randolph	166	LB	East Carolina
1978	7	Tom Randall	194	G	Iowa St.
1978	8	Homer Butler	222	WR	UCLA
1978	9	Russ Williams	250	DB	Tennessee
1978	10	Barry Tomasetti	278	G	Iowa
1978	11	Dennis Thurman	306	DB	USC
1978	12	Lee Washburn	334	G	Montana St.

1979

January 21 1979 Stealers beat the Cowboys 35-31 in Superbowl XIII

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1979	1	Robert Shaw	27	C	Tennessee
1979	2	Aaron Mitchell	55	DB	UNLV
1979	3	Doug Cosbie	76	TE	Santa Clara
1979	4	Ralph DeLoach	109	DE	California
1979	5	Bob Hukill	121	G	North Carolina
1979	5	Curtis Anderson	128	DE	Central State (OH)
1979	5	Ron Springs	136	RB	Ohio St.
1979	6	Tim Lavender	155	DB	USC
1979	6	Mike Salzano	160	G	North Carolina
1979	6	Chris DeFrance	164	WR	Arizona St.
1979	7	Greg Fitzpatrick	191	LB	Youngstown St.
1979	8	Bruce Thornton	219	DE	Illinois
1979	9	Garry Cobb	247	LB	USC
1979	10	Mike Calhoun	274	DT	Notre Dame
1979	12	Quentin Lowry	329	LB	Youngstown St.

1980

Bob Lilly, ‘Mr Cowboy’, the huge DT goes into the NFL Hall of Fame
Herb Adderley, CB goes into the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1980	3	Bill Roe	78	LB	Colorado
1980	3	James Jones	80	RB	Mississippi St.
1980	4	Kurt Petersen	105	G	Missouri
1980	5	Gary Hogeboom	133	QB	Central Michigan
1980	6	Timmy Newsome	162	RB	Winston-Salem St.
1980	7	Lester Brown	189	RB	Clemson
1980	8	Larry Savage	216	LB	Michigan St.
1980	9	Jackie Flowers	246	WR	Florida St.
1980	10	Matthew Teague	273	DE	Prairie View
1980	11	Gary Padjen	300	LB	Arizona St.
1980	12	Norm Wells	330	DT	Northwestern

1981

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1981	1	Howard Richards	26	G	Missouri
1981	2	Doug Donley	53	WR	Ohio St.
1981	3	Glen Titensor	81	G	BYU
1981	4	Scott Pelluer	91	LB	Washington St.
1981	4	Derrie Nelson	108	LB	Nebraska
1981	5	Danny Spradlin	137	LB	Tennessee
1981	6	Vince Skillings	163	DB	Ohio St.
1981	7	Ron Fellows	173	DB	Missouri
1981	7	Ken Miller	191	DB	East. Michigan
1981	8	Paul Piurowski	218	LB	Florida St.
1981	9	Mike Wilson	246	WR	Washington St.
1981	10	Pat Graham	273	DT	California
1981	11	Tim Morrison	302	G	Georgia
1981	12	Nate Lundy	329	WR	Indiana

1982

The drafting of Rod Hill in Round One starts a string of bad draft, with a few exceptions that continue until Jerry Jones purchases the team.
The 1982 NFL strike, which lasted for three months and eight weeks, forced the 1982 season to be shortened to 9 games per team
Dallas goes 6-3 and ends the season just missing the Super Bowl.
Dallas wins first round over Bucs, round two over Packs and loses NFC championship to Redskins who beat the Dolphins in the Superbowl

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1982	1	Rod Hill	25	DB	Kentucky St.
1982	2	Jeff Rohrer	53	LB	Yale
1982	3	Jim Eliopulos	81	LB	Wyoming
1982	4	Brian Carpenter	101	DB	Michigan
1982	4	Monty Hunter	109	DB	Salem
1982	5	Phil Pozderac	137	T	Notre Dame
1982	6	Ken Hammond	143	G	Vanderbilt
1982	6	Charles Daum	165	DT	Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo
1982	7	Bill Purifoy	193	DE	Tulsa
1982	8	George Peoples	216	RB	Auburn
1982	8	Dwight Sullivan	221	RB	North Carolina St.
1982	9	Joe Gary	249	DT	UCLA
1982	10	Todd Eckerson	277	T	North Carolina St.
1982	11	George Thompson	295	WR	Albany St.
1982	11	Mike Whiting	304	RB	Florida St.
1982	12	Rich Burtness	332	G	Montana

1983

November 29, 1983: Cowboys break ground on a 30-acre office and training facility in Valley Ranch.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1983	1	Jim Jeffcoat	23	DE	Arizona St.
1983	2	Mike Walter	50	LB	Oregon
1983	3	Bryan Caldwell	77	DE	Arizona St.
1983	4	Chris Faulkner	108	TE	Florida
1983	5	Chuck McSwain	135	RB	Clemson
1983	6	Reggie Collier	162	QB	Southern Miss
1983	7	Chris Schultz	189	T	Arizona
1983	8	Lawrence Ricks	220	RB	Michigan
1983	9	Al Gross	246	DB	Arizona
1983	10	Eric Moran	273	T	Washington
1983	11	Dan Taylor	300	T	Idaho St.
1983	12	Lorenzo Bouier	331	RB	Maine

1984

Bum Bright purchases the Cowboys for $84 million

Tex Schramm points out items of interest at the new training facility at Valley Ranch. Courtesy of John F. Rhodes Photography. Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107. TSHA Handbook

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1984	1	Billy Cannon	25	LB	Texas A&M
1984	2	Victor Scott	40	DB	Colorado
1984	3	Fred Cornwell	81	TE	USC
1984	4	Steve DeOssie	110	LB	Boston Col.
1984	5	Steve Pelluer	113	QB	Washington
1984	5	Norm Granger	137	RB	Iowa
1984	6	Eugene Lockhart	152	LB	Houston
1984	6	Joe Levelis	166	G	Iowa
1984	7	Ed Martin	193	LB	Indiana St.
1984	8	Mike Revell	222	RB	Bethune-Cookman
1984	9	John Hunt	232	T	Florida
1984	9	Neil Maune	249	G	Notre Dame
1984	10	Brian Salonen	278	LB	Montana
1984	11	Dowe Aughtman	304	DT	Auburn
1984	12	Carl Lewis	334	WR	Houston

1985

Captain America in his second job, moonlighting as a waiter
August 27, 1985: Players and coaches move to the new Valley Ranch facility.
Front office personnel move in several weeks later, marking the first time since 1967 that the team’s practice facility and office complex are in the same area.
Valley Ranch becomes the sixth Cowboy practice facility.
Roger Staubach inducted into NFL Hall of Fame at QB

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1985	1	Kevin Brooks	17	DT	Michigan
1985	2	Jesse Penn	44	LB	Virginia Tech
1985	3	Crawford Ker	76	G	Florida
1985	4	Robert Lavette	103	RB	Georgia Tech
1985	5	Herschel Walker	114	RB	Georgia
1985	5	Matt Darwin	119	C	Texas A&M
1985	6	Kurt Ploeger	144	DE	Gustavus Adolphus
1985	6	Matt Moran	157	G	Stanford
1985	7	Karl Powe	178	WR	Alabama St.
1985	7	Jim Herrmann	184	DE	BYU
1985	8	Leon Gonzalez	216	WR	Bethune-Cookman
1985	9	Scott Strasburger	243	LB	Nebraska
1985	10	Joe Jones	270	TE	Virginia Tech
1985	11	Neal Dellocono	297	LB	UCLA
1985	12	Karl Jordan	324	LB	Vanderbilt

1986

In a Brad Sham book ‘Stadium Stories’ Tex Schramm says that in the Spring of 1986 Bum Bright, Tex Schramm and Landry agree that Landry will retire at the end of the season. According to Tex, the NFL has moved past him and he will not adapt. Paul Hackett is brought in from San Francisco to take over for Landry and revive the stagnating offense
Landry refuses to let Hackett run the offense and blends the West Coast offense with his old one
He does not retire at the end of the year as he agreed to.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1986	1	Mike Sherrard	18	WR	UCLA
1986	2	Darryl Clack	33	RB	Arizona St.
1986	3	Mark Walen	74	DT	UCLA
1986	4	Max Zendejas	100	K	Arizona
1986	6	Thornton Chandler	140	TE	Alabama
1986	6	Stan Gelbaugh	150	QB	Maryland
1986	6	Lloyd Yancey	158	G	Temple
1986	7	Johnny Holloway	185	DB	Kansas
1986	8	Topper Clemons	212	RB	Wake Forest
1986	9	John Ionata	242	G	Florida St.
1986	10	Bryan Chester	269	G	Texas
1986	11	Garth Jax	296	LB	Florida St.
1986	12	Chris Duliban	307	LB	Texas
1986	12	Tony Flack	322	DB	Georgia

1987

Brad Sham “Landry then decides, without telling anyone, he is not going to quit.” Either 1987 or 1988 in the Spring, Landry had a press conference. Schramm had Marty Schottenheimer in town, looking at houses. He thought he was going to hire Marty Schottenheimer to replace Tom Landry, who was going to retire. Landry comes and has a press conference, and that’s when Schramm finds out that Landry is not quitting.
Tex will still not fire him as Gil, Tex and Tom were hired together and would leave together.
This is the strike year. Replacements go 2-1. Regulars go 5-7.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1987	1	Danny Noonan	12	DT	Nebraska
1987	2	Ron Francis	39	DB	Baylor
1987	3	Jeff Zimmerman	68	G	Florida
1987	4	Kelvin Martin	95	WR	Boston Col.
1987	5	Everett Gay	124	WR	Texas
1987	6	Joe Onosai	151	G	Hawaii
1987	7	Kevin Sweeney	180	QB	Fresno St.
1987	8	Kevin Gogan	206	G	Washington
1987	9	Alvin Blount	235	RB	Maryland
1987	10	Dale Jones	262	LB	Tennessee
1987	11	Jeff Ward	291	K	Texas
1987	12	Scott Armstrong	318	LB	Florida

1988

Possibly Landry’s worst year. He can no longer relate to the players, the NFL has long since figured out the Flex defense and his GM and Owner have expected him to retire for the past two years. They go 3-13
Mike Ditka goes into NFL Hall of Fame at TE

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1988	1	Michael Irvin HOF	11	WR	Miami (FL)
1988	2	Ken Norton Jr.	41	LB	UCLA
1988	3	Mark Hutson	67	G	Oklahoma
1988	4	Dave Widell	94	C	Boston Col.
1988	6	Scott Secules	151	QB	Virginia
1988	7	Owen Hooven	178	T	Oregon St.
1988	8	Mark Higgs	205	RB	Kentucky
1988	9	Brian Bedford	232	WR	California
1988	10	Billy Owens	263	DB	Pittsburgh
1988	11	Chad Hennings	290	DT	Air Force
1988	12	Ben Hummel	317	LB	UCLA

1989

Feb 25, 1989 – Bum Bright sells the team. He has had several offers, however he wasn’t going to sell to anyone that was going to keep Landry. Landry must be fired for the deal to be done. But does not take the highest one, instead he goes with the charismatic Jerry Jones for $170 million.
“Our agreement on the purchase of the Dallas Cowboys was finalized with a few notes on a napkin and a handshake,” Jones said in a statement. “With Bum, his word meant everything.” LA Times
Jones is the the majority partner, with five minority owners, including Ed Smith of Houston, who had 27 percent under Bright’s ownership. The other minority owners include Charles Wily, Sam Wily and Evan Wily, who are affiliated with U.S. Cafes, owners of the Bonanza Steakhouse chain, and Russell Glass.
Brad Sham; “So, Bum Bright says to Jerry Jones, ‘I’ll fire him for you.’ And Jerry says ‘No, no, I’m going to fly down and tell him face to face.’ Well, people don’t want to hear that, because that doesn’t make Jerry a villain.”
The firing actually happens prior to Jerry Jones speaking to him. Landry is in the film room with newly hired Quarterback coach Jerry Rhome, who was also a player in the 60’s for the Cowboys. Tex Schramm sticks his head in the door and asks Landry to come into the hall. Newspaper reports and a personal phone call to Jerry from me confirm this. Landry comes back into the room and says, “Sorry I got you into this, they just fired me.” And Landry doesn’t wait around to fight for his job with Jones, but jumps in his plane and flies to Austin.
Announcement of the sale, rumored since Thursday, came at a news conference 8:22 p.m. Saturday at Valley Ranch. The news conference was scheduled to begin at 7 p.m., but was delayed because Jones and club president Tex Schramm flew in Jones’ private jet to Austin to inform Landry personally that he was being replaced as Cowboys coach. Schramm’s voice broke and tears welled in his eyes as he talked of the visit with Landry. “It was a very difficult meeting, difficult and sad,” said Schramm, who will retain his role with the Cowboys. “It’s tough when you break a relationship that you have had for 29 years. But I am glad the ownership problem has been cleared up. It’s good for the ballclub,” Schramm said. (The Oklahoman)
Bright says later that his biggest regret during his Cowboy tenure was not firing Landry himself.
Jones offers Landry a position with the Cowboys that Tom declines.
Jones hires Jimmy Johnson, his Arkansas teammate as Head Coach. He will serve from 1989-1993. He supervises the 1989 Draft

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1989	1	Troy Aikman HOF	1	QB	UCLA
1989	2	Steve Wisniewski	29	G	Penn St.
1989	2	Daryl Johnston	39	RB	Syracuse
1989	3	Mark Stepnoski	57	C	Pittsburgh
1989	3	Rhondy Weston	68	DE	Florida
1989	4	Tony Tolbert	85	DE	Texas-El Paso
1989	5	Keith Jennings	113	TE	Clemson
1989	5	Willis Crockett	119	LB	Georgia Tech
1989	5	Jeff Roth	125	DT	Florida
1989	7	Kevin Peterson	168	LB	Northwestern
1989	8	Charvez Foger	196	RB	Nevada
1989	9	Tim Jackson	224	DB	Nebraska
1989	10	Rod Carter	252	LB	Miami (FL)
1989	11	Randy Shannon	280	LB	Miami (FL)
1989	12	Scott Ankrom	308	WR	TCU

October 12, 1989, a trade occurs centered on sending running back Herschel Walker from the Dallas Cowboys to the Minnesota Vikings. Including Walker and a transaction involving the San Diego Chargers, the trade eventually involved 18 players and draft picks. This gave Dallas the ammunition to win the three Super Bowls of the 1990s

“There is no right way to fire Tom Landry. Yet it was what everybody wanted done, and what everybody agreed had to happen. They just wanted him to step away gracefully, but he didn’t want to.”
“The great irony to me is that is what he did with his players. He intentionally did not have close personal relationships with most of his players while he was playing because he knew there would be a day when he would have to cut them. And all of his players, 85-90%, didn’t like him when they played for him. But they looked back after they played for him, and said “Wow.” He cared about them deeply, but felt, this is the way I have to run this business. Then it happened to him, and he didn’t like it.” Brad Sham courtesy Peter King podcast.

1990

1990-97: Training camp St. Edwards University in Austin
Tom Landry becomes the first Cowboy coach in the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1990	1	Emmitt Smith HOF	17	RB	Florida
1990	2	Alexander Wright	26	WR	Auburn
1990	3	Jimmie Jones	64	DT	Miami (FL)
1990	5	Stan Smagala	123	DB	Notre Dame
1990	9	Kenneth Gant	221	DB	Albany State (GA)
1990	11	Dave Harper	277	LB	Humboldt St.

1991

Texas E. Schramm becomes the first Cowboy GM in the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1991	1	Russell Maryland	1	DT	Miami (FL)
1991	1	Alvin Harper	12	WR	Tennessee
1991	1	Kelvin Pritchett	20	DT	Mississippi
1991	2	Dixon Edwards	37	LB	Michigan St.
1991	3	Godfrey Myles	62	LB	Florida
1991	3	James Richards	64	G	California
1991	3	Erik Williams	70	T	Central State (OH)
1991	4	Curvin Richards	97	RB	Pittsburgh
1991	4	Bill Musgrave	106	QB	Oregon
1991	4	Tony Hill	108	DE	Tenn-Chattanooga
1991	4	Kevin Harris	110	DE	Texas Southern
1991	5	Darrick Brownlow	132	LB	Illinois
1991	6	Mike Sullivan	153	G	Miami (FL)
1991	7	Leon Lett	173	DT	Emporia St.
1991	9	Damon Mays	235	WR	Missouri
1991	10	Sean Love	264	G	Penn St.
1991	11	Tony Boles	291	RB	Michigan
1991	12	Larry Brown	320	DB	TCU

The Triplets. Dallas Cowboys quarterback Troy Aikman, running back Emmitt Smith, and wide receiver Michael Irvin. Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107. Courtesy TSHA Handbook

1992

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1992	1	Kevin Smith	17	DB	Texas A&M
1992	1	Robert Jones	24	LB	East Carolina
1992	2	Jimmy Smith	36	WR	Jackson St.
1992	2	Darren Woodson	37	DB	Arizona St.
1992	3	Clayton Holmes	58	DB	Carson-Newman
1992	3	James Brown	82	T	Virginia St.
1992	4	Tom Myslinski	109	G	Tennessee
1992	5	Greg Briggs	120	DB	Texas Southern
1992	5	Rod Milstead	121	G	Delaware St.
1992	6	Fallon Wacasey	149	TE	Tulsa
1992	9	Nate Kirtman	248	DB	Pomona
1992	9	Chris Hall	250	DB	East Carolina
1992	10	John Terry	275	G	Livingstone
1992	11	Tim Daniel	302	WR	Florida A&M
1992	12	Don Harris	317	DB	Texas Tech

1993

January 31 1993 Dallas destroys Buffalo in XXVII 52-17

Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson wtih Super Bowl trophy

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1993	2	Kevin Williams	46	WR	Miami (FL)
1993	2	Darrin Smith	54	LB	Miami (FL)
1993	3	Mike Middleton	84	DB	Indiana
1993	4	Derrick Lassic	94	RB	Alabama
1993	4	Ron Stone	96	G	Boston Col.
1993	6	Barry Minter	168	LB	Tulsa
1993	7	Brock Marion	196	DB	Nevada
1993	8	Dave Thomas	203	DB	Tennessee
1993	8	Reggie Givens	213	LB	Penn St.

1994

1994: Cowboys owner Jerry Jones plans to expand the 65,000-seat Texas Stadium by 40,000 seats, add retractable roof panels and install a climate-control system to make the stadium a year-round venue for sporting events, including the Super Bowl, concerts, and conventions.
January 30 1994 Dallas replays 1993 and take out Buffalo 30-13 in Superbowl XXVIII
Tony Dorsett, Cowboy RB goes into the NFL Hall of Fame
Randy ‘The Manster’ White goes into the NFL Hall of Fame
Jackie Smith goes in NFL Hall of Fame. Only with Dallas one year but famous for dropping the tying TD pass in Super Bowl XIII against the Steelers.
March 29, 1994 – a day that will live in Cowboy infamy. At a hotel bar in Orlando, Jerry Jones tells reporters Rick Gosselin and Ed Werder, “There are 500 coaches who could have won the Super Bowl with our team.”
A week later Jerry and Jimmy part ways. Barry Switzer is hired as head coach

Barry Switzer replaced Jimmy Johnson as Head Coach. Courtesy Sports Illustrated, Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1994	1	Shante Carver	23	DE	Arizona St.
1994	2	Larry Allen HOF	46	G	Sonoma St.
1994	3	George Hegamin	102	T	North Carolina St.
1994	4	Willie Jackson	109	WR	Florida
1994	4	DeWayne Dotson	131	LB	Mississippi
1994	6	Darren Studstill	191	DB	West Virginia
1994	7	Toddrick McIntosh	216	DE	Florida St.

1995

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1995	2	Sherman Williams	46	RB	Alabama
1995	2	Kendell Watkins	59	TE	Mississippi St.
1995	2	Shane Hannah	63	G	Michigan St.
1995	3	Charlie Williams	92	DB	Bowling Green
1995	4	Eric Bjornson	110	TE	Washington
1995	4	Alundis Brice	129	DB	Mississippi
1995	4	Linc Harden	130	LB	Oklahoma St.
1995	5	Edward Hervey	166	WR	USC
1995	5	Dana Howard	168	LB	Illinois
1995	7	Oscar Sturgis	236	DE	North Carolina

1996

January 28 1996 Dallas wins it’s 5th Superbowl over the Steelers, 27-17
Me Renfro joins the Hall of Fame at as a Cowboy S and CB

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1996	2	Kavika Pittman	37	DE	McNeese St.
1996	2	Randall Godfrey	49	LB	Georgia
1996	3	Clay Shiver	67	C	Florida St.
1996	3	Stepfret Williams	94	WR	La-Monroe
1996	3	Mike Ulufale	95	DT	BYU
1996	5	Kenneth McDaniel	157	T	Norfolk St.
1996	5	Alan Campos	167	LB	Louisville
1996	6	Wendell Davis	207	DB	Oklahoma
1996	7	Ryan Wood	243	RB	Arizona St.

1997

1997–2000: The Cowboys hold preliminary talks with Arlington officials about building a stadium there. The team also publicly discusses a $260 million plan to upgrade Texas Stadium. In 2000, the Cowboys compile a list of potential stadium sites, which include Grapevine, Coppell, and Arlington. The team continues negotiating with Irving to renovate Texas Stadium.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1997	1	David LaFleur	22	TE	LSU
1997	3	Dexter Coakley	65	LB	Appalachian St.
1997	3	Steve Scifres	83	G	Wyoming
1997	3	Kenny Wheaton	94	DB	Oregon
1997	4	Antonio Anderson	101	DT	Syracuse
1997	4	Macey Brooks	127	WR	James Madison
1997	4	Nicky Sualua	129	RB	Ohio St.
1997	6	Lee Vaughn	187	DB	Wyoming
1997	7	Omar Stoutmire	224	DB	Fresno St.

1998

1998-2001: Training camp moved to Midwestern State in Wichita Falls
however in 2001, River Ridge Playing Field in Oxnard shared training camp
Tommy McDonald, Cowboy WR joins the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1998	1	Greg Ellis	8	DE	North Carolina
1998	2	Flozell Adams	38	T	Michigan St.
1998	4	Michael Myers	100	DT	Alabama
1998	5	Darren Hambrick	130	LB	South Carolina
1998	5	Oliver Ross	138	T	Iowa St.
1998	6	Izell Reese	188	DB	Ala-Birmingham
1998	7	Tarik Smith	223	RB	California
1998	7	Antonio Fleming	227	G	Georgia
1998	7	Rodrick Monroe	237	TE	Cincinnati

1999

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
1999	1	Ebenezer Ekuban	20	DE	North Carolina
1999	2	Solomon Page	55	G	West Virginia
1999	3	Dat Nguyen	85	LB	Texas A&M
1999	4	Wane McGarity	118	WR	Texas
1999	4	Peppi Zellner	132	DE	Fort Valley St.
1999	6	MarTay Jenkins	193	WR	Nebraska-Omaha
1999	7	Mike Lucky	229	TE	Arizona
1999	7	Kelvin Garmon	243	G	Baylor

2000

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2000	2	Dwayne Goodrich	49	DB	Tennessee
2000	4	Kareem Larrimore	109	DB	West Texas A&M
2000	5	Michael Wiley	144	RB	Ohio St.
2000	6	Mario Edwards	180	DB	Florida St.
2000	7	Orantes Grant	219	LB	Georgia

2001

2001: Jones says Arlington is a leading contender for a $500 million stadium. The primary site considered is the 2,000 acres (810 ha) Lakes of Arlington tract on Farm Road 157. Other cities in the running include Grapevine and Grand Prairie. In October, Jones discusses the new stadium with the mayors of Arlington, Irving, Grapevine, and Dallas.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2001	2	Quincy Carter	53	QB	Georgia
2001	2	Tony Dixon	56	DB	Alabama
2001	3	Willie Blade	93	DT	Mississippi St.
2001	4	Markus Steele	122	LB	USC
2001	5	Matt Lehr	137	C	Virginia Tech
2001	6	Daleroy Stewart	171	DT	Southern Miss
2001	7	Colston Weatherington	207	DE	Central Missouri St.
2001	7	John Nix	240	DT	Southern Miss
2001	7	Char-ron Dorsey	242	T	Florida St.

2002

2002-2003: Training camp at Alamodome in San Antonio

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2002	1	Roy Williams	8	DB	Oklahoma
2002	2	Andre Gurode	37	G	Colorado
2002	2	Antonio Bryant	63	WR	Pittsburgh
2002	3	Derek Ross	75	DB	Ohio St.
2002	4	Jamar Martin	129	FB	Ohio St.
2002	5	Pete Hunter	168	DB	Virginia Union
2002	6	Tyson Walter	179	C	Ohio St.
2002	6	DeVeren Johnson	208	WR	Sacred Heart
2002	6	Bob Slowikowski	211	TE	Virginia Tech

2003

2003: The Cowboys ask the Irving City Council to extend their lease at Texas Stadium, which expires at the end of the 2008 season, on a year-to-year basis. They narrow their search to sites in Las Colinas and Dallas, and state legislators file bills that would allow Dallas County to increase its hotel occupancy and car rental taxes to pay for a new stadium.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2003	1	Terence Newman	5	DB	Kansas St.
2003	2	Al Johnson	38	C	Wisconsin
2003	3	Jason Witten	69	TE	Tennessee
2003	4	Bradie James	103	LB	LSU
2003	6	B.J. Tucker	178	DB	Wisconsin
2003	6	Zuriel Smith	186	WR	Hampton
2003	7	Justin Bates	219	G	Colorado

2004

April 2004: Cowboys announce plans to build a $650 million stadium at Fair Park in Dallas. The deal requires $425 million in public financing from a 3% hotel-occupancy tax and a 6% car-rental tax.
June 2004; American Airlines Center is a “major obstacle” to building a Dallas Cowboys stadium in Fair Park, Mayor Laura Miller and several City Council members said Wednesday.

“We should not have structured the deal like we did,” the mayor said, explaining that a noncompete clause in the arena’s contract with the city is complicating negotiations with the Cowboys. “It’s a big problem. American Airlines Center keeps saying, ‘You can’t do this; you can’t do that.’ Our attorneys are going to continue to work on it.”

The city’s 1998 contract with American Airlines Center says the city cannot participate in the building of a stadium that would seat between 5,000 and 50,000 people and therefore compete with the arena for concerts and family events.
The deal falls apart in June when Dallas County commissioners say they cannot justify asking voters to approve the team’s request for $425 million in public funding.
Dallas Mayor Laura Miller made a last ditch effort to keep the Cowboys in Dallas offering a hotel tax that matched the one the county turned down. Arlington offered to pay$325 mil for the stadium plus raise other funding and Dallas wouldn’t match. (Ms Miller said they simply didnt have the money) ( Texas Monthly, Feb 2006)
In July, the Cowboys and Arlington announce they are negotiating to locate the stadium near Globe Life Park (then Ameriquest Field). In August, the Arlington City Council agrees unanimously to put before voters a tax increase that would fund the city’s $325 million portion of the project. Voters approve the tax increase on November 2.
2004-2006: Training camp at River Ridge in Oxnard, CA

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2004	2	Julius Jones	43	RB	Notre Dame
2004	2	Jacob Rogers	52	T	USC
2004	3	Stephen Peterman	83	G	LSU
2004	4	Bruce Thornton	121	DB	Georgia
2004	5	Sean Ryan	144	TE	Boston Col.
2004	7	Nate Jones	205	DB	Rutgers
2004	7	Patrick Crayton	216	WR	NW Oklahoma St.
2004	7	Jacques Reeves	223	DB	Purdue

2005

2005: Arlington and the Cowboys choose the site south of Randol Mill Road and east of Collins Street for the new stadium. The city begins notifying residents and property owners of its plans to acquire their property. The Cowboys hire the HKS architectural firm to design the stadium. Early blueprints show 414 luxury suites and a two-panel retractable roof. The city completes its sale of $297.9 million in bonds to pay for its portion of the construction. Demolition of houses begins November 1.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2005	1	DeMarcus Ware	11	LB	Troy
2005	1	Marcus Spears	20	DE	LSU
2005	2	Kevin Burnett	42	LB	Tennessee
2005	4	Marion Barber III	109	RB	Minnesota
2005	4	Chris Canty	132	DE	Virginia
2005	6	Justin Beriault	208	DB	Ball St.
2005	6	Rob Petitti	209	T	Pittsburgh
2005	7	Jay Ratliff	224	DE	Auburn

2006

January 2006: The Cowboys hired Oklahoma-based Manhattan Construction as the general contractor for the stadium and the city completes its land purchases, although it still faces a number of lawsuits over land acquisition. Later that month, Tarrant County work crews begin demolition of more than 150 Arlington residences and small business structures to make room for the stadium.
March 2006: Alliance announced between Manhattan Construction and two general contractors, Rayco Construction of Grand Prairie and 3i Construction of Dallas, to manage the stadium’s construction.
April 2006: Excavation begins by Mario Sinacola and Sons Excavating. By August, they had moved over 1.4 million cubic yards of earth, shaping a 13-to-14-acre (5.3 to 5.7 ha) stadium bowl an average of 54 feet (16 m) deep.
October 2006: The grass amphitheater on Randol Mill Road is leveled to make way for the extension of Baird Farm Road.
December 2006: The stadium’s structure begins to go up and on December 12, Jerry Jones unveils the in-depth plans and designs of the stadium to the public.
Troy Aikman goes into NFL Hall of Fame as a Cowboy QB
‘Big Cat’ Rayfield Wright, Cowboy OT goes into NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2006	1	Bobby Carpenter	18	LB	Ohio St.
2006	2	Anthony Fasano	53	TE	Notre Dame
2006	3	Jason Hatcher	92	DE	Grambling St.
2006	4	Skyler Green	125	WR	LSU
2006	5	Pat Watkins	138	DB	Florida St.
2006	6	Montavious Stanley	182	DT	Louisville
2006	7	Pat McQuistan	211	T	Weber St.
2006	7	E.J. Whitley	224	C	Texas Tech

2007

January 2007: A construction worker is injured in a 20 ft fall.
June 2008: Jones commissions the world’s largest 1080 HDTV, to hang above field. An electrician is electrocuted while working on the stadium. Two days before, three people were injured while assembling a crane.
Training camp at Alamodome
WR Micheal Irvin goes into NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2007	1	Anthony Spencer	26	DE	Purdue
2007	3	James Marten	67	T	Boston Col.
2007	4	Isaiah Stanback	103	QB	Washington
2007	4	Doug Free	122	T	Northern Illinois
2007	6	Nick Folk	178	K	Arizona
2007	6	Deon Anderson	195	FB	Connecticut
2007	7	Courtney Brown	212	DB	Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo
2007	7	Alan Ball	237	DB	Illinois

2008

2008 and 2010 Training camp at River Ridge in Oxnard

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2008	1	Felix Jones	22	RB	Arkansas
2008	1	Mike Jenkins	25	DB	South Florida
2008	2	Martellus Bennett	61	TE	Texas A&M
2008	4	Tashard Choice	122	RB	Georgia Tech
2008	5	Orlando Scandrick	143	DB	Boise St.
2008	6	Erik Walden	167	DE	Middle Tenn. St.

2009

2009: The stadium is scheduled for ‘substantial completion’ in June. The artificial-turf field was brought into the stadium in July. The Cowboys played their first pre-season home game on August 21 and their first regular-season home game on Sunday, September 20.
May 2, 2009 Rich Behm is paralyzed and 11 others hurt when straightline winds take out a tent at Valley Ranch.
May 13, 2009: Jerry Jones announced the official name of the new venue as Cowboys Stadium.
2009 and 2011: Training camp at Alamodome in San Antonio
September 20, 2009: The Cowboys played their first NFL regular season game in the new stadium, . The Cowboys lose to the Giants 33–31 on a last second field goal by Lawrence Tynes. It was televised on NBC. This game attracted a record-breaking crowd of 105,121.
‘Bullet’ Bob Hayes finally goes into the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2009	3	Jason Williams	69	LB	West. Illinois
2009	3	Robert Brewster	75	T	Ball St.
2009	4	Stephen McGee	101	QB	Texas A&M
2009	4	Victor Butler	110	LB	Oregon St.
2009	4	Brandon Williams	120	DE	Texas Tech
2009	5	DeAngelo Smith	143	DB	Cincinnati
2009	5	Michael Hamlin	166	DB	Clemson
2009	5	David Buehler	172	K	USC
2009	6	Stephen Hodge	197	DB	TCU
2009	6	John Phillips	208	TE	Virginia
2009	7	Mike Mickens	227	DB	Cincinnati
2009	7	Manuel Johnson	229	WR	Oklahoma

2010

Emmitt Smith, NFL all time rushing leader is a first ballot NFL Hall of Famer

Emmitt Smith celebrates breaking the NFL All-Time Rushing Record. Courtesy of Michael Wood Photography. Image available on the Internet and included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2010	1	Dez Bryant	24	WR	Oklahoma St.
2010	2	Sean Lee	55	LB	Penn St.
2010	4	Akwasi Owusu-Ansah	126	DB	Indiana (PA)
2010	6	Sam Young	179	T	Notre Dame
2010	6	Jamar Wall	196	DB	Texas Tech
2010	7	Sean Lissemore	234	DT	William & Mary

2011

February 6, 2011: The 2010 NFL Season Super Bowl was hosted at the Cowboys Stadium, which saw the Green Bay Packers defeat the Pittsburgh Steelers in Super Bowl XLV. It was in the middle of a sudden snow and ice storm where several guests were struck by ice sliding off the roof. The City of Arlington had no capabilities for ice of this magnitude.
Deion ‘Primetime’ Sanders goes into NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2011	1	Tyron Smith	9	T	USC
2011	2	Bruce Carter	40	LB	North Carolina
2011	3	DeMarco Murray	71	RB	Oklahoma
2011	4	David Arkin	110	G	Missouri State
2011	5	Josh Thomas	143	DB	Buffalo
2011	6	Dwayne Harris	176	WR	East Carolina
2011	7	Shaun Chapas	220	RB	Georgia
2011	7	Bill Nagy	252	G	Wisconsin

2012

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2012	1	Morris Claiborne	6	DB	LSU
2012	3	Tyrone Crawford	81	DE	Boise St.
2012	4	Kyle Wilber	113	LB	Wake Forest
2012	4	Matt Johnson	135	DB	East. Washington
2012	5	Danny Coale	152	WR	Virginia Tech
2012	6	James Hanna	186	TE	Oklahoma
2012	7	Caleb McSurdy	222	LB	Montana

2013

July 25, 2013: Jerry Jones announced that the official name of the venue was changed to AT&T Stadium as part of a naming rights deal.
Larry Allen, OT and OG for us goes into NFL Hall of Fame
Bill Parcells, Cowboys Head Coach goes into NFL Hall of Fame
The Star project was announced in 2013 as a partnership between the City of Frisco and the Dallas Cowboys as part of the “$5 Billion Mile” in Frisco Station, Texas. The Ford Center is part of a 91-acre development called The Star that includes the Dallas Cowboys’ team headquarters and training facility which moved from Valley Ranch, Texas, a 300-room Omni Hotel, the Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor Walk, and retail and restaurant space. The Ford Center at The Star aside from the main stadium features practice fields and a sports training complex called the “Baylor Scott & White Sports Therapy & Research center for sports medicine”
The Star becomes the 7th and current practice facility for the Dallas Cowboys.

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2013	1	Travis Frederick	31	C	Wisconsin
2013	2	Gavin Escobar	47	TE	San Diego St.
2013	3	Terrance Williams	74	WR	Baylor
2013	3	J.J. Wilcox	80	DB	Georgia Southern
2013	4	B.W. Webb	114	DB	William & Mary
2013	5	Joseph Randle	151	RB	Oklahoma St.
2013	6	DeVonte Holloman	185	LB	South Carolina

2014

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2014	1	Zack Martin	16	G	Notre Dame
2014	2	DeMarcus Lawrence	34	DE	Boise St.
2014	4	Anthony Hitchens	119	LB	Iowa
2014	5	Devin Street	146	WR	Pittsburgh
2014	7	Ben Gardner	231	DE	Stanford
2014	7	Will Smith	238	LB	Texas Tech
2014	7	Ahmad Dixon	248	DB	Baylor
2014	7	Ken Bishop	251	DT	Northern Illinois
2014	7	Terrance Mitchell	254	DB	Oregon

2015

Charles Haley, DE and LB goes into NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2015	1	Byron Jones	27	CB	Connecticut
2015	2	Randy Gregory	60	OLB	Nebraska
2015	3	Chaz Green	91	T	Florida
2015	4	Damien Wilson	127	ILB	Minnesota
2015	5	Ryan Russell	163	DE	Purdue
2015	7	Mark Nzeocha	236	OLB	Wyoming
2015	7	Laurence Gibson	243	T	Virginia Tech
2015	7	Geoff Swaim	246	TE	Texas

2016

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2016	1	Ezekiel Elliott	4	RB	Ohio St.
2016	2	Jaylon Smith	34	OLB	Notre Dame
2016	3	Maliek Collins	67	DT	Nebraska
2016	4	Charles Tapper	101	DE	Oklahoma
2016	4	Dak Prescott	135	QB	Mississippi St.
2016	6	Anthony Brown	189	CB	Purdue
2016	6	Kavon Frazier	212	S	Central Michigan
2016	6	Darius Jackson	216	RB	East. Michigan
2016	6	Rico Gathers	217	TE	Baylor

2017

Jerry Jones goes into NFL Hall of Fame as an owner

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2017	1	Taco Charlton	28	DE	Michigan
2017	2	Chidobe Awuzie	60	CB	Colorado
2017	3	Jourdan Lewis	92	CB	Michigan
2017	4	Ryan Switzer	133	WR	North Carolina
2017	6	Xavier Woods	191	S	Louisiana Tech
2017	6	Marquez White	216	CB	Florida St.
2017	7	Joey Ivie	228	DT	Florida
2017	7	Noah Brown	239	WR	Ohio St.
2017	7	Jordan Carrell	246	DT	Colorado

2018

WR Terrell Owens goes into NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2018	1	Leighton Vander Esch	19	OLB	Boise St.
2018	2	Connor Williams	50	T	Texas
2018	3	Michael Gallup	81	WR	Colorado St.
2018	4	Dorance Armstrong Jr.	116	DE	Kansas
2018	4	Dalton Schultz	137	TE	Stanford
2018	5	Mike White	171	QB	Western Kentucky
2018	6	Chris Covington	193	LB	Indiana
2018	6	Cedrick Wilson	208	WR	Boise St.
2018	7	Bo Scarbrough	236	RB	Alabama

2019

Gil Brandt becomes the first Director of Player Personnel in the NFL Hall of Fame

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2019	2	Trysten Hill	58	DT	Central Florida
2019	3	Connor McGovern	90	G	Penn St.
2019	4	Tony Pollard	128	RB	Memphis
2019	5	Michael Jackson	158	CB	Miami (FL)
2019	5	Joe Jackson	165	DE	Miami (FL)
2019	6	Donovan Wilson	213	S	Texas A&M
2019	7	Mike Weber	218	RB	Ohio St.
2019	7	Jalen Jelks	241	DE	Oregon

2020

Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	College/Univ
2020	1	CeeDee Lamb	17	WR	Oklahoma
2020	2	Trevon Diggs	51	CB	Alabama
2020	3	Neville Gallimore	82	DT	Oklahoma
2020	4	Reggie Robinson II	123	CB	Tulsa
2020	4	Tyler Biadasz	146	C	Wisconsin
2020	5	Bradlee Anae	179	DE	Utah
2020	7	Ben DiNucci	231	QB	James Madison

If you haven’t read our interview with Cowboy All Pro LB Thomas ‘Hollywood’ Henderson, go to https://meminc.org/thomashenderson/

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CHARLIE WATERS & THE ALLIGATOR SHOES

meminc — Sun, 17 Jan 2021 23:37:00 +0000

Charlie Waters and the Alligator Shoes

Charlie Waters at Safety for the Dallas Cowboys, courtesy Clemson University and Charlie Waters

by Paul Heckmann

Executive Director, Memories Inc.

“If I had 45 players that tried as hard and cared as much as Charlie did, we would not lose a football game.”
Dallas Cowboys Coach Tom Landry

To preface a bit, Charlie was a veritable encyclopedia of football, the consummate NFL pro. Very smart, very articulate and needed absolutely no direction from me to tell his story! He jumped right in. I simply turned on the recorder and let him tell it the way he remembered.
—

Paul: After talking with you a bit before the interview, I will let you take your story the direction that you want to go. Go for it!

Charlie Waters: We were on the cutting edge in preparation.

Paul Heckmann: I was gonna go into this a little bit later on, but you worked with Bob Ward quite a bit didn’t you?

Charlie: Yes, I did. Bob taught me an awful lot about body control, self-control, and strength, and perfect practice makes perfect, not practice makes perfect. But his individual, one on one contact and what you look at is the key to everything. And so if you’re not real serious about it, that doesn’t mean a damn thing to you. But I was real serious about it because it meant a lot to me, to perform. And so, it was great. Bob was a great inspiration. There’s two or three things that he did that really helped me. He increased the strength of my grip. And nobody ever thinks about that, about being able to grab somebody and hold on.

Cowboy Strength and Conditioning coach Bob Ward with Bruce Lee training partner Dan Inosanto. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Bob Ward taught us all that stuff. And he was so unique and modernized, Dan Inosanto was his teacher. Dan was taught by Bruce Lee.

I owe an awful lot to Bob, he’s very, very progressive in his thinking.

Paul: Did you know Paul Ward, his brother?

Charlie: No.

Paul: Paul was one of the coaches for the Olympic weight lifting team. I knew him from HTCA and a couple other places out there. He worked with Sammy Walker too, the big shotput guy from SMU. He was on the Olympic weightlifting team.

Charlie: You talk about some timing and coordination. That’s a Hell of a thing, spin around like that, and throw that sucker out. I don’t know how in the world you all did that.

Paul: Well, we used the old glide technique. And about when I was coming in was when we started doing that turn. And that was a mess, for me. I’m in Webster’s when it talks about the guy with two left feet.

Charlie: I’m glad we can laugh about it now.

Paul: Oh, my God.

You know, I think you and I might have met before. I was the maître d’ at the Playboy Club not long after it first opened. Y’all were upstairs, a couple floors above us, there at 6116 North Central. I was the maître d’ there for the first year, in the front. In the disco.

Charlie: Did you ever meet me?

Paul: I’m thinking we must’ve run across each other. Then I left for Papagayo and daVinci after that for the next three or four years. So, we must’ve crossed paths at least once or twice during that time period.

Charlie: I’m sure we did. The Greenville Ave bars.

Paul: Harvey and Too Tall were regulars at Papagayo. They kinda had that corner of that first bar to your right when you came up. That was their place. Everybody knew to stay away from that corner because they’d be coming in. And you hear this voice from around the corner, and you know instantly it’s Harvey. He had that deep Harvey voice.

Charlie: So, why are you doing with this interview?

Paul: We have just started a new Facebook Football page for Memories Inc called Memories of Texas Football. I interviewed John Fitzgerald Booty for our first football interviews. Carthage kid that played at Cisco and TCU before a 9 year NFL career. For the Memories of Dallas Facebook page and webpage, I interviewed Barry Corbin about a month and a half ago. The actor that did Northern Exposure, he played Uncle Bob in Urban Cowboy – the fellow got knocked out by lightning, you know, John Travolta’s uncle. Also just did one with Burton Gilliam, from Blazing Saddles and Papermoon.

Charlie: Burton’s a good friend of mine, too.

Paul: We had a blast. He’s one of these guys you can sit there and just talk to, and talk to, and talk to, and every moment it just seems like he got that big smile. I really had a great time talking to him.

Memories of Dallas and Memories of Texas Football are two things we’re looking at for your interview.

Our 501c3 Non-Profit, Memories Inc. has been around for a little over two years.

Do you know Angus Wynne by chance?

Charlie: I do. I know Angus quite well.

Paul: Yeah. Angus is on our Board of Directors (emeritus now)

Charlie: Angus Wynne is legitimate. He’s special. Tell him that I said hello and along with Rosie. He knows Rosie.

Paul: Will do!

So, let’s get back to Charlie Waters. Now you were born in Miami, how old were you when you moved to North Augusta?

Charlie: I was 10 years old. My dad was a crane operator. In other words, he was in the construction business. So, there’s some opportunities from the a nuclear power plant out there on the Savanna River, right after the second World War, in the ‘50s. So there was some opportunity for construction work. So that’s when we moved to South Carolina. My mom was from Maryland, and my dad was raised in Georgia. So, I had three older brothers. My oldest brother was a half-brother, but my two other brothers, one was three years older than me, and he was a really good athlete.

Paul: Was that Keith?

Charlie: Yes. You did your homework. That’s Keith. He was really, really a good baseball player, and basketball player. Not much of football. Really not that tough. I didn’t know I was as tough as I was back then. We were baseball players. We loved baseball.

So yeah, we moved there to North Augusta when I was 10 and started in baseball.

Paul: Gotcha. Now it looked to me – I was looking on the map there, in some of the photos. That looked like a great area for hunting and fishing and stuff like that. Is that something you guys did?

Charlie: No, I never got into that. We never could. We barely had enough money to put food on the table.

Paul: I see.

Charlie: My dad was, as I said, was a construction worker, and it was – I had one baseball glove the whole time I was growing up. Playing five years of baseball. And Keith, my brother, got a baseball scholarship to Clemson. Surprisingly, it was just about the time I signed as a quarterback for Clemson, my brother got a baseball scholarship to Clemson. Go figure.

He’s three years older that I was. And when I signed with Clemson, they gave him a scholarship.

Paul: Oh. I see.

Charlie: He earned it, but it didn’t happen until I signed with Clemson.

Paul: Was that supposed to be, maybe, an enticement? For you to sign?

Charlie: Yes. Those kind of things happen. If he didn’t deserve it, I

Charlie set to score for the Tigers. Per Clemson Sports

don’t think they would’ve done it, you know? But it just made things a little bit easier for me to sign with Clemson. Because they wanted me to play quarterback, and Alabama wanted me to play running back, or wide receiver, or defensive back, and Georgia wanted me to play running back. Tennessee wanted me to play wide receiver. So, Clemson said they thought I was a quarterback. In reality I really wasn’t a quarterback. Those other guys were right. And I eventually did move to wide receiver three quarters of the way through my second year as a starter. I broke my big toe and had to sit out a game. Then the guy who took my place had a Hell of a game. So, when I came back a couple weeks later, he got his shot out there every week. From then on, I started playing wide receiver. I caught 68 passes at Clemson, which was unheard of, considering they were three yards in a cloud of dust. The Frank Howard days.

Frank Howard, Clemson coach when Charlie was there. Courtesy Clemson Sports

Paul: Frank Howard. Absolutely.

Charlie: Frank Howard days were just a trip, man. You’re talking about a strange comparison between him and Tom Landry.

Paul: Well, tell me about Frank Howard.

“Boy, you believe in magic?”

That’s what he asked me one time when I was – after I’d moved to wide receiver, our quarterback got hurt, in the game.

Paul: (laughs) Well, I was sitting here trying to think of Tom Landry saying the same thing.

Charlie: Yeah. Just go to Tom Landry and then go to Frank Howard.

But he believed in me. He did. I remember one time, this is when I was still playing quarterback.

We were playing Alabama in Clemson. And we got within field goal range of them in the fourth quarter. Or early in the third quarter, we started coming back. And our kicker misses a kick. I was a holder. Our kicker misses a 37 yard chip shot. And that would’ve tied the game. And coach Howard met him 15 yards before he got to the sideline, and called him a gutless m*****r f*****r. I mean, I said ‘Coach, it doesn’t take guts to be a kicker’. What do you mean, gutless? And I said, we got the whole fourth quarter ahead. Don’t be doing that to our kicker. He met him on the field and chewed him out.

Another one he used to say to us was, some us got into fraternity life at Clemson, which was kinda fun to do that. But he said, “I don’t think you should be joining a fraternity. We got our own fraternity. Just call that Delta Phi.” Is that hilarious?

Texas Tech DB Denton Fox, West Texas State Duane Thomas, BC DL John Fitzgerald and Clemson WR Charlie Waters at the 1970 Coach’s All America game in Lubbock. All were Dallas draft picks, Thomas in the 1st, Waters and Fox in the 3rd and Fitzgerald in the 4th. Courtesy Don Williams Lubbockonline.com and USA Today

I mean, he was a comedian. And I went from that to Tom Landry, and I was going ‘Oh, my God.’ Thank God there is someone else going on out there in the world, this world of football. Such a trip. X-rated, and his son was very colorful too. Anyway, Frank Howard, as I said, we had some good coaches on our staff.

Anyway, I had an interesting time at Clemson, and sure enough, Georgia and Alabama and Tennessee, they were all right on – when I got out of there, I was a wide receiver, quarterback turned wide receiver.

And in the draft Green Bay said okay, we’re gonna pick you in the next round. So Green Bay tells me tells me I’m gonna be picked as a wide receiver and I’m saying, all right, all right. Bart Starr! this is great.

And then the next thing I know, I get a call from Gil Brandt. He says, Charlie, can you run backwards?

Paul: (Laughs) ‘What do you mean Gil?’

Charlie: Yeah, what do you mean? Well, we just picked you as a defensive back in the third round in the 1970 draft. We’re hoping you can run backwards.

I said, what about tackling? Don’t I have to know how to tackle? So anyway, it was the beginning.

Paul: That is wild.

Charlie: All of that, everything that’s happened to me during my career at different places in time with the Cowboys is all been, when you look at the grand scheme of things, I’m so thankful I’ve played these other positions. I knew so much more than everybody else.

Because you’re very narrow if you just stay in your one position your whole career. It’s hard for you to broaden your horizons. And you know, Coach Landry was a quarterback in college as well. And he saw something in me that a lot of people didn’t see and I really am thankful that he took me under his wing.

We had a pretty rough year, one year, my second year in the league. My first two years in the league, I just make the team as a backup. I was a backup doing safety and played on special teams. If you don’t mind me going through this.

Paul: Not at all. You’re covering point by point what I was gonna ask you. So, it’s perfect.

Charlie: Okay. So, my rookie year, I barely make the team but I make the team as a backup. And we had Richmond Flowers was the backup free safety, Cliff Harris makes it as a free agent and starts the first five games his rookie year. We have Cornell Green playing strong safety, and I was playing backup SS

Paul: A basketball player?

Charlie: A basketball player.

Gil Brandt at his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame. Courtesy NFL Hall of Fame

Paul: A basketball player and a quarterback turned defensive back.

Charlie: And Gil Brandt is the reason for all of that, without a doubt.

Paul: I know, crazy.

Charlie: Gil Brandt was a genius, and don’t tell him I said that, but he is pretty special.

Paul: We won’t… wink-wink.

Charlie: Oh, he’s a fascinating interview. You need to call him. Ask him to tell the story about alligator shoes.

Paul: Alligator shoes? Oh, my God. (We lost Mr. Brandt since this interview, before I could chat with him. May he rest in peace.)

Charlie: Yeah. I gotta tell you this one story. It’s just so funny.

Gil Brandt drafts me in the third round, and he comes out to South Carolina, and visits me at Clemson. Shows up in a really nice suit, and had a pair of brown alligator tassel shoes. And I had nothing growing up. I mean, we never celebrated a birthday at our house because we didn’t have any money to celebrate a birthday. It’s better to put potatoes on the dining room table than to have a birthday. So, I look at those alligator shoes, and Gil’s up there, and he came to visit me the first time, and I don’t know what he offered me but he didn’t offer what I thought was appropriate. I got some advice from a football player that played at Clemson and then in the NFL on contracts.

So Gil makes me this offer, but I don’t sign and I complimented him on his alligator shoes. Well, about 10 days later I received in the mail, special delivery to me a pair of alligator shoes. They are beautiful. I’m going, this is big time. I am in the big leagues. So, I go another two weeks, maybe three weeks and I don’t sign. But eventually I do sign. I think he gave me $17,000 signing bonus. And $15,000 salary.

Paul: Now, this is 1970, isn’t it?

Charlie: 1970. $15,000 my rookie year as a third round draft pick. So, I signed, and they sent the contract to me. And I signed the contract, and I sent it back to him. He sends me my bonus check, I think I made $3000 bonus. My first year salary was $15,000.

And four days later, after he’d sent me that money, he sent me an invoice in the mail for the alligator shoes!

Paul: (laughs) God dang it!

Charlie: Is that classic or what?

So, now I can talk about this stuff. And then the next thing I know that happens, that’s pretty monumental for me, is Cliff Harris comes in as a free agent, and they keep three rookies. They keep me, Cliff Harris, and Richmond Flowers. Richmond Flowers was an Olympic sprinter, or hurdler. You remember that name?

Paul: I remember that. He could fly!

Charlie: He could fly. But he was goofy. He wasn’t football smart at all. He would step up and tell you that. And he was the backup at free safety and I was a backup at strong safety. After five games, Cliff started all five of the first games and we were I think four and one at the time. Cliff’s National Guard unit got called up to active duty.

So, Richmond Flowers starts the first game, and he tripped a guy on the sideline when he had a chance to knock a guy out. He came in feet first instead of head first, and I remember looking at Coach Landry, he just rolled his eyes up in the air, like who is this guy? So, the next week I start as free safety. I’m 21 years old, I’ve never played defensive back in my life, playing a game against the Green Bay Packers I tackle Bart Starr on the sideline and I ask him for his autograph while I was laying on top of him. But anyway, I ended up leading the team in interceptions. I started six games and got five interceptions. I was the only rookie in the lineup, just like Cliff was the only rookie in the lineup before his callup.

Cliff had to go off to boot camp, but he could come home on the weekends, and he played on special teams. And he and I were best friends. I can’t imagine how uncomfortable that was for him. I mean, that just was horrible. But that was my first year, and it was fascinating to me. We went to the Super Bowl, and I was involved in the Super Bowl an awful lot, for sure. But we lost. And right at the end, Jim O’Brien kicked a field goal and beat us. Then the next year, I was competing with Cliff for free safety. And Cliff was a better free safety than I was, without a doubt, because he had a certain style of play that reminded you that football was a contact sport.

Charlie Waters and Cliff Harris

Paul: I heard him described as ‘a bag of knives’.

Charlie: Yep, he was called Captain Crash. And everybody referenced him as Captain Crash. And your collateral damage was also a factor. He’ll even hit people but he’d also hit us. Herb Adderley grabbed his jersey one day and said, ‘Cliff, quit hitting me! I’m on the same dang team as you are!’

So anyway, Cliff was gonna blow somebody up on every play, and that‘s what he did. He just reminded everybody that it’s a physical game. So, I had the experience of playing free safety for two years, but then the next year I was going back as a backup to Cornell. That same year when Cliff came back, I ended up being a backup at both free safety and strong safety but I never started any games. I played as a backup role and I played a nickel defense and specialty defense.

Paul: 1972?

Charlie: 1971. 1970 was my first year, and 1971 was the year that I came back as a backup behind Cliff. ’70, I played the last six games and led the team interceptions. So, here the next year comes rolling around, and I’m supposed to be a safety. I’m supposed to be a backup safety behind Cornell Green, this is his 12th year in the league or something like that, 10th year in the league. And he was on top of his game. He was an all pro. He was a hell of a player. 6’4″, had the worst hands in the world for a basketball player, but really smart gentleman with hilarious personality. Great player. Really loved him to death as a friend.

Herb Adderley starts slowing down, not putting his face into tackles, which didn’t suit Gene Stallings and also Tom Landry too well. So they tried another corner, Mark Washington, who was in my class. He didn’t fare too well, and the next thing you know, I’m starting at corner.

Here I am now, I’ve played wide receiver, played quarterback, played wide receiver, and then played strong safety, then I played free safety, and now they move me to corner. And I’m the left corner spot and most quarterbacks in the league are right handed (most likely area of the field to attack). And Mel Renfro is the other corner. So, where are they gonna throw it?

And that’s where they threw it, they threw it at me. And so I learned all the techniques, and it was difficult for me, but I got beat one time, Harold Jackson (for the Rams) I think he scored three touchdowns in the game. They weren’t all my fault, but everybody thought they were all my fault. So we got the training room the next day, we were watching the films. Coach Landry got in there and said “Look, Charlie had a rough day yesterday, but I’ll tell you one thing,” and this is what Coach Landry said. And he got me for life when he said this…

“If I had 45 players that tried as hard and cared as much as Charlie did, we would not lose a football game.”

Tom Landry and Roger Staubach, courtesy Washington Times

That’s what he said in front of the team, when we went in to watch the films the next day after the game. And I mean, I just – it sends chills up my spine today to tell the story. I mean, what in the hell did he see? He saw something, and so I ended up playing pretty good. We won, but we missed the playoffs one year, it was the only year we missed the playoffs the whole time I played in the NFL. We made playoffs 11 out of my 12 years. And we missed one year when I was playing corner. I kinda took on the brunt of it, but here’s the blessing in disguise, silver coated lining, here. I learned all the techniques of free safety, I learned all of them because I played it for two years. And then I learned corner for three years, off and on. I was starting sometimes, sometimes backup but led the team in interceptions a couple years.

Gene Stallings, Charlie Waters and Cliff HarrisPhoto courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

But I learned every technique that Tom Landry was teaching. And every technique Gene Stallings was teaching from a hands on scenario, I mean, I played it. I knew it. I knew exactly what was happening. If anything, I understood how to play football. Especially since I played quarterback, wide receiver, and all the other positions. So after my fifth year in the league, Cornell Green retires. And the next year I make All Pro at Strong Safety. Coach Landry called me in, told me I was gonna start controlling the defense along with the middle linebacker, you know.

Landry’s Flex defense was so coordinated and so complicated. All I’m telling you, it’s complicated. I can’t even explain it to you now. I think I knew a good bit of the defensive back component of it, but I didn’t understand the frog stance that the defensive lineman used.

Randy White and Charlie Waters comparing abs

Paul: Randy White.

Charlie: Yeah. And so, you think nobody else in the league played the Flex defense. Well, duh. You know why? Nobody else understood it, except for Dick Nolan – and when Dick Nolan tried to play it, he ended up giving up on it. It’s just too hard to teach, and too complicated, but genius, it was all Tom Landry. So then I’m starting to think how in the world did this happen? Frank Howard, Tom Landry? So my first year we went to the Super Bowl, went to the Super Bowl five times in my career. We won two.

Paul: Isn’t it something? Some players, they play their whole career and never make a single Super Bowl.

Charlie: I know. We made the playoffs every year except one. And Landry was so incredibly intense, there was nothing left unturned. There wasn’t one stone still laying on the table. You picked it up, you look at it, you figure it out, it’s a stone, we’re gonna kick the s**t out of them when we do this. If you’re gonna make a mistake, if you’re gonna do something on your own or if you make a mistake, you damn sure better make the play. Because it’s all based on everybody being coordinated with each other. It is a coordinated defense. And every formation had its own defense design for that week. And guess who had to let everybody in the secondary know what was going on, and that was me.

Charlie Waters, circa 1972. It was the era of helmet hair. I had it too!

I played both free safety and strong safety, so I was ready to take that on. And I had a lot better hands than Cornell Green. Cornell should’ve had 50 interceptions. I had 50 interceptions in my career.

Paul: So I hear, there was a poll in 1975, ‘the most underrated, unsung, and all probability underpaid player in the NFL’, and they said that was Charlie Waters, 1975.

Charlie: Yeah, I won the Sports Illustrated unsung hero award two years in a row. Two years in a row, but you know, if you get unsung, if you get an unsung hero, don’t you get sung?

Paul: (Laughs)

Charlie: That ain’t right. So I mean, I played one year with a broken arm when I was playing corner.

I don’t know if you got the book that Cliff and I wrote. But I played the whole season with a rod in my arm. The humerus is the second largest bone on the body. And I had a rod in there. Now you know how stupid we were. Because if you don’t play, somebody’s gonna take your place. And if you don’t play well, somebody’s gonna take your place.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Charlie: That’s just the way it is.

Paul: I crushed my elbow two years ago in a bicycle accident. And they had to rebuild my elbow, and I just had that bolt removed, probably the same bolt you had. They probably used it in my arm, too, and they just finally took it out after two years. So, I can feel for ya, it’s never the same. It doesn’t matter what they tell you, it doesn’t feel the same, tendons don’t feel the same, nothing feels the same.

Charlie: Nope. That’s right. My rod in my arm was 18 inches long. It was a titanium rod. And let me tell you something, every bone in my body would’ve broken before that bone broke.

Paul: We know the six million dollar man would not work.

Charlie: No, it wouldn’t work. But I really believe that if you can figure out a way to make the joints move a little smoother, guys that are 30 years old, their careers could be extended. Because that’s what you start understanding football is when you turn 30 years old.

Paul: So, let me ask you about – jumping back for a minute to 1971. Now you’ve got to another Super Bowl, you got a win over the Dolphins. And your dad had a near fatal heart attack in the stands.

Charlie: That’s correct. Near the end of the game, it was really a come from behind, it was dramatic, and of course Roger worked magic, miracles and stuff.

But yeah, (my dad) he keeled over in the stands. He was older, and he eventually died from a heart attack, but he recovered and I found out about it in the locker room. My dad was a strong man, had a second grade education. He said, I might be a ditch digger, but I’m gonna be the best ditch digger anybody ever needed. I will do it perfectly. So, he was a very special, tough man, wouldn’t give up. Four boys in his family.

Paul: He taught you something, didn’t he?

Charlie: Yeah he did.

Paul: That’s for sure. Sorry to hear hear of his passing.

My dad used to say, there’s a start and an end to every story. He died on a Friday the 13th. I think he did it on purpose, my dad. I swear to God, that man had a purpose for everything he did, and he dies on a Friday the 13th, like ‘I’m not gonna let you forget it, son.’

Charlie: Wow, that’s hilarious.

Paul: I think that’s what they call dark humor. It’s kinda like, how can you not grin, no matter if it’s your dad or not?

Getting back to football, you you played for 12 years?

Charlie: I sat out one year. So, I only got on the field 11 years but I got credit for 12 years. Because if you get hurt in the regular season or in the preseason, you get credit for that season. You get your money and you get credit. So, yeah.

Paul: So, who were the leaders of the team back when you first came in?

Charlie: Well, Lee Roy Jordan ran the defense, as middle linebacker. And Cornell Green would be in charge of the secondary. And Bob Lilly was a quiet, great performer. Offensive side of the ball was Roger, of course. And Dan Reeves was the coach, the player/coach for a while and then he ended up being a NFL head coach. I really wish that Dan would’ve taken over the offense. Coach Landry handled both sides of the ball. I mean, nobody does that. He was the only coach in the history of the NFL that handled both sides of the ball. He worked his tail off, and he had an idea for all of it.

He had me for life, and he was really a good person. A smart person.

Paul: Tell me about the bicycle built for two. For you and Cliff

Charlie: Is that goofy or what?

A bicycle built for two! Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: I’m sitting there going, ‘I can just about guarantee these two boys there did not buy that bike!’

Charlie: (laughs) No, they did not! It was some kind of cover shot, they brought the bike.

Paul: That was pretty good, I like that one.

So also, you were an expert at one other thing, there. A lot of other people forget, and that’s holding for extra points.

Charlie: Yeah. Extra points field goals, yeah. I did it for 10 years.

Coach Landry, he just knew that I cared, and I was a perfectionist in everything. And I was so damn serious about the game, techniques, and detail stuff. And holding for extra points for field goals is an absolute thankless job and you only get attention when you drop it. I think I lost one of them in the 10 years that I held, and that was it. I think I missed just one fumble, and it was in a playoff game against Atlanta. And I thought the game was gonna be determined because of my drop the extra point. But it didn’t. It just affected the bettors. It was a three point line, and if we made the extra point, we covered the line, but it didn’t. So, I got hate letters in the mail.

Paul: Oh, no.

Charlie: Accusing me of throwing the game. It’s all your fault!

Coach Landry makes an announcement, because all the kickers at training camp when I’m with Tony Fritsch who’s our kicker from Germany. And he said, after about a week of practice some of the kickers like to have the ball placed in a certain way, other kickers another way. He says from now on, everybody holds the same way for each kicker. If we do it the same way every time for everybody, then it becomes a moot factor.

The next day after Coach Landry did that in front of the whole team, we get ready to do the field goal drill, we get ready to warm up around the back of 12 yard line. Tony comes up to the spot – I had my finger down on the ground, and he comes up to me, and he puts his foot there right by the spot, and he speaks through his helmet, ‘a little more angle’. Coach Landry is 12 feet behind us, and he’s hearing everything. Tony could barely speak English, and I’m going, what in the f*** am I gonna do, because I knew Tony was the best kicker we had. Landry watches me hold at Tony’s angle, so he understood, he didn’t say anything. I thought that was one of the funniest stories I’ve ever told.

I played two more years after my knee surgery, but let me tell you, I was playing with a handicap. It was difficult. I was playing with my brain alone. They didn’t know how to fix an anterior cruciate back then, and they sure didn’t fix mine very well because I was only able to play another two years.

+++End of Part One. We pick up the next morning +++

Charlie Waters, Cowboy Safety, 1975. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Charlie: Hey, good morning, Paul.

Paul: Hey, Charlie. How are you doing, buddy?

Charlie: Doing all right. How about yourself?

Paul: Very good, thanks for asking.

I’m just going to kind of pick up where we were yesterday. Now I did have a question for you. I keep seeing this four blocked punts in a single game. Is that correct?

Charlie: No, not in a single game. Four blocked punts in two separate games. Back to back. Two in one game and then two, the next game.

Paul: Makes more sense. But still, darn incredible.

Charlie: So, I guess you could say I’m making up a stat, but that doesn’t fill the slots because I blocked two punts at the end of the season against the Los Angeles Rams, when we lost the game. I had an interception, 10 tackles, and two blocked punts. It was against Los Angeles in the playoff game. And then, the very first game, next year, preseason game, I blocked two punts, again. Now that doesn’t mean squat because you don’t get to count the preseason games. But to me, I mean, it is still the same feat, to have accomplished something that radical. But, anyway, it’s back-to-back games. Two and then two.

Paul: I was trying to figure out how in world a coach wouldn’t adjust to that with the up back or something.

Charlie: What are they doing? Don’t they want to block me? You’d think they’d try to block me.

Paul: I was sitting there thinking that special teams coach didn’t have a job the next day.

Charlie: That’s exactly right. The next year, there’s another coach.

Paul: I would have put the three upbacks on you. To heck with everybody else.

Charlie: (Laughs) Well you had Thomas Henderson on the inside. And man, those guys were ferocious, so they had to collapse down on them.

Coach Landry and Ed ‘Too Tall’ Jones… yep, Coach is smiling. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: Oh, you had Too Tall in the middle.

Charlie: Yeah.

Paul: That’s right, because, mean, he just stuck his paw up there and he blocked a couple of them.

Charlie: Yeah, he used to block field goals. He never block the punts. But Gene Stallings is the person that taught me how to block a punt.

Paul: Tell me!

Charlie: Gene Stallings, my defensive back coordinator, from Texas A&M. He was my position coach for 10 years, and I loved him to death. He was a great, great coach. And he even went on to be a head coach at St. Louis.

So, he taught me how to – We used to have a punt-blocking exercise, which is really coming for the punter. It’s really coming for the punter, because he is probably going to get hit a couple of times. But basically, the thought pattern that he wanted us to feel and try to accomplish was you don’t try to time up swinging at the ball. You just come in there and reach your hands out and keep them out straight. And it’s a simple little thing, but we practiced it and we practiced it. And I did it pretty good, when I blocked the punt, but I had such great timing on it. I was there, and I knew I was going to get it.

It’s the same way with trying to knock a pass down. He always used to tell us, “Just reach. Just reach. The ball is going to bounce off your hand, and it’s going to be incomplete. You don’t have to slap it down. And that takes timing to try to swing it.” So, I mean, all these little things were just fascinating to me. I love all those little techniques.

Paul: It’s a science.

Charlie: – Yeah, a science. Sure.

Ernie Stautner, one very intense coach. Courtesy EBay. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: So, tell me a little bit about Ernie Stautner.

Charlie: Ernie was a tough, tough guy, but I really had a lot of respect for him because he was almost crippled, about right at the end of my career. His knees were so bad, and he’d been beat up so much. His hands were just gnarly and everything. But he was really good at stopping the run. And Coach Landry is the one – Coach Landry designed the flex defense to stop the run. And Ernie Stautner, he just was an extension of Tom Landry about the little details.

And, of course, he was a stickler for all kind of details when it came to steps. I don’t know if you’ve seen any– if you’ve ever done any kind of studying of the flex defense, but the guy that’s in the crouch position that’s about two yards off the ball? He actually reads the offensive linemen, not the one blocking on him, but both of them, the one blocking on him and the one nearest. If he’s in the gap, he has to read them both.

And that changes what he does. If the guy tries to block down on him, then he’ll loop around him. And it had everybody baffled. And we always had a lineman free, it seemed. And then, all my job was, as strong safety position, was one, turn the play in. I had to get the fullback or guard. And regardless of if it’s a 100-pound difference in size I still had to turn the play in.

And then, – in some defenses, Thomas Henderson would turn the play in. Or my strong side linebacker would turn the play in and I’d be the one that was designated to be the tackle. So, we were actually playing an eight-man front mainly because of Cliff Harris. Coach Landry designed defenses that had Cliff responsible for a gap on the weak side, a free safety.

Having a gap on the weak side of the formation. Yeah it’s fascinating when he did it. And then, I would become the free safety from the strong safety position, so we can see that being different. The offensive team thinks that with the linebacker being outside, that I’m going to be the one plugging the gap between the tackle and the tight end, but it wouldn’t be me, it’d be the defensive end and Cliff would cover an extra hole on the other side open and it would be Cliff Harris at that gap. He weighed 186 pounds and he knocked the s*** out of me, I’m telling you. He killed me. Anyway, Landry was the first eight-man front. Nobody gives him credit for that but I do, I recognize it.

Thomas destroys the Denver offense in the Super Bowl. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: So, I talked to Thomas Henderson, told him I was going to be interviewing you, he said to remind you, “Charlie played off my hip. He once called me a gazelle.”

Charlie: Yeah, when he ran that kick-off back against Los Angeles, he looked like a gazelle. He looked more like an animal than he looked like a human being. He had such a great stride and his legs were so powerful. And he had such great rhythm. He knocked down a lot of balls. The other thing that really disturbed me about Thomas is he was such a better athlete than everybody else, or anyone who’s just a better football player than anybody else. He actually should have been playing the weak side linebacker position because the weak side linebacker rushes a lot more than the strong side linebacker does. And the weak side linebacker doesn’t have anybody over him.

Paul: No tight end

Charlie: Exactly. Where Thomas is at, he has to fight through the tight end. We did have some blitzes and anytime we used a blitz I ensure you I know that that ball is going to come out of the quarterback’s hand at a certain time because Thomas is going to be there. That’s why I got a lot of kicks. I just gambled, thinking that we were going to have pass rush. And we did.

I know this, I wasn’t sure that Thomas was going to know all the details, the schemes, because he was a little bit kooky during the week. I used to always reassure him what his job was, just before the ball was snapped and he’d nod his head. He never turned around and looked at me, couldn’t do that because they might snap it, but I would get close enough to him and let him know, okay, contain the outside, turn the play in, let’s rush the gap. Close up the tight end, and then we’ll run a trail technique on the tight end. Those kind of things.

Paul: Kind of reaffirm it.

Charlie: It didn’t bother him that I did that, I think it may give him a sense of security that he’s got a job to do and we all have a job to do and it’s all of us on defense or we don’t play. So, you must make the play if you do not do exactly what your job is.

Paul: Thomas really spoke highly of you. He really did.

Charlie: And I think a lot of him, I think he’s a really, really good person. He just was a little bit full of himself back in the day and I understand why.

He was bigger, faster, and stronger than everybody. He could jump, he could leap, that’s why he was more like a gazelle than a scat cat. I loved him, he had a great attitude and he didn’t give a crap about what the other people thought about him. He played his ass off on every play.

Paul: What more can you ask?

Tell me a little bit about Roger Staubach, the man, the myth.

Charlie: It’s every bit of it is true. A myth is something that’s fantasy, but it’s not with him. I remember the first game that brought us from behind against San Francisco. It might have been 1973, I was still playing corner. We were three touchdowns behind, and Roger got hurt in preseason. So, he sat out every game. And then, Craig (Morton) had a bad game against San Francisco and Roger came in off the bench and scored three touchdowns in four minutes. I might be exaggerating a little bit but that was the beginning of it. And we all started believing.

Roger Staubach and Charlie Waters in charity ball game. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

From the defensive point of view, we used to say this in the huddle all the time, ‘get the fricking ball back to Roger. Just get it back. He will win it.’ We all believed it. I’m sure the offensive guys were excited like heck to play with him because he scrambled and saved so many plays. He had sometime make audibles on his own, so he was really smart at doing that. He could read defenses before the ball was snapped. Most quarterbacks look at the middle linebacker to figure out what the defense is, and the line, so the guard could get the call to the office lineman about what technique they’re going to use. But Roger did a good job of recognizing exactly what the other team’s intentions were. That’s why Coach Landry used to always tell us to disguise our intentions.

I used to give a lot of fake hand signals to my guys. It was just to throw the other team off in case they started getting them.

One of our defenses was a 40 defense, which means man-to-man, free safety, strong side rush, one-man rush with box force, which means Thomas Henderson would be box forcing it. When I played corner I could not see the backs.

We had defenses set up based on what the back field positions were. My strong safety, Cornell, he had plenty on his plate at that time, he didn’t need me to be bugging him.

But I couldn’t tell if it was a split formation from the Corner, we called it the Brown formation with the fullback in line, the quarterback, and back on the weak side. It would change based on my technique and the defense we were playing.

I used to turn to the corners and make sure they knew what the defense was. And we changed it up every once in a while just in case the offense started monitoring the calls.

Paul: I had no idea you would change defending on the fullback setup.

Now we all know how the Redskins were about picking that spy stuff.

Charlie: Yes, they were the Evil Empire. The worst thing they did was there was a hotel behind our practice field, a motel.

I think it was the Motel 6. We weren’t paranoid or anything, but the Cowboys used to rent all the rooms in that hotel for a week when we prepared for the Redskins. At the end of the week we would drive a bus down to the Cotton Bowl and practice at the Cotton Bowl for the last few days of the week.

Paul: There’s something I didn’t know. I will add that to our Cowboy timeline.

Charlie: We would do that against the Redskins because we knew they were caught many times trying to spy on us.

Paul: Sure. Like you said, the Evil Empire

Charlie: What, me worry? (Laughs)

Paul: Oh my God!

Okay, so tell me about the end of your career with the Cowboys. I know you were hurting like crazy back then.

Charlie: The 10th year in the league I was on my game. My best year in the league was the year before and I was really strong and played around – I was around 6′ 2″, 198. Now I’m 5′ 11″.

Lets you know how many head-on collisions I had.

My 10th year in the league in the preseason game against Seattle I stepped on a landmine out there on their artificial turf in a preseason game, that lets you know how hard I was going, even in a preseason game. I planted with my right foot and torqued my body to the left because I was chasing after a tight end and an explosion went off in my knee and I knew it, I tore my anterior cruciate (ACL) and I had to sit out the season and it almost killed me. I did the radio broadcast with Brad (Sham) several times.

Roger ‘Captain Comeback’ Staubach scalping the Redskin Defense. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

That was when the comeback that Roger made against the Redskins in Dallas. I was in the booth that game. Brad said, “Charlie, surely this game’s over.” I said, “Brad, Roger Staubach is our quarterback. Just get the ball back. You’ve got to believe. If you don’t believe you’re not going to make any of your dreams come true.” And sure enough, we get the ball back and he throws a touchdown pass to Tony Hill in the end zone. It was one second to go or something and that was his legacy.

He could win a game with his feet but he could also win a game with his moxie and his never say die.

Paul: Oh, he’s a guy you wanted on your team.

Charlie: We just felt so good with him in there. We had a rotation of Roger and Craig one year where they would go in and out on every play, and that was difficult for us on defense.

Paul: Were you there when Clint Longley did his famous ‘punch and run’?

Charlie: Yes, I witnessed it. Yeah, I saw it all.

Paul: From what I understand, he had everything packed up and ready to go after he sucker punched him.

Charlie: Yeah. I had lunch with him the day before and I was trying to calm him down because he and Roger got in a tussle on the practice field in the pre-practice warm-up and we had to go break it up.

Defensive guys had to go break it up. That lets you know what a competitor Roger was.

But Clint had some skills, he had a really nice way of looking one way and throwing the other. He was real good at that one position. But yeah, I had lunch with Clint the day before. He said, “You know, I figured out how to get traded.” I said, “How are you going to do it?” He said, “You’ll find out.”

Paul: Oh, no.

Charlie: He wouldn’t tell me. I was trying to pick his brain about how he was going to handle this because he got in the fight with Roger at the beginning of practice, I told you that. We knew there was bad blood there and Roger wasn’t going to back down.

Paul: Do you know what the fight was about? Was it just a fight because he was the backup?

Charlie: Clint didn’t feel like he was getting the respect. And Roger, he can step on a person and that’s it. That’s what Roger’s like. He goes for the throat. He was great at holding his position for all those years, even though he wasn’t the ‘consummate quarterback’ for pros because he ran so damn much. He had a separated shoulder that year when he came back from San Francisco. He tried to run over Marlin McKeever, linebacker for the Rams. And he just dislocated his right shoulder. He tried to run over him in the open field and I’m like, “You idiot.”

Paul: Oh, geez.

Clint Longley, The Mad Bomber. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Charlie: Anyway, sure enough in the locker room, when Roger got on the scales to weigh and he was looking down at the scales, Clint sucker-punched him.

Paul: Oh, man.

Charlie: I went chasing him. He had already left. He already had his bags packed and everything.

Paul: Totally premeditated.

Charlie: Yes, exactly.

Paul: Of all the people to punch and then trying to get traded because of that. Did he actually get traded or did he get cut? Do you remember?

Charlie: We might’ve got some compensation for him. I don’t know what it was. That wouldn’t make it a trade, but if he got cut or released, then there would be no, I’m unsure of that.

(On August 30, 1976, after a training room incident in which Clint Longley sucker-punched Roger Staubach during the 1976 preseason, the team suspended and eventually traded him to the San Diego Chargers along with a first round draft pick (#24-Bob Rush), in exchange for a first (#14-Steve August) and second draft choice (#41-Terry Beeson). The Cowboys used those two picks and two other picks to eventually land the No. 2 overall pick in the 1977 draft, selecting Tony Dorsett. Courtesy Wiki)

Charlie: He had potential, he was really, really good against some defenses, as I told you. He could look me off and throw to the other side.

You know that one game that when Roger got knocked out.

Paul: He did great. Thanksgiving day 1974 against the Redskins. We were trailing in the second half, Roger went down, I think he threw a couple of TDs before he hit Drew Pearson with about half a minute left in the game for a 50-yard hail mary TD

Charlie: Oh my God. He could move the ball down the field. Those linebackers didn’t come at him because they didn’t see, they didn’t know where he was going to throw the ball. I mean, he wouldn’t look them off.

Paul: Sure.

Charlie: I understand that. Because I was a quarterback and also I understand it, because I used to stare right in quarterback eyes, try to guess what he’s doing.

Paul: Right. You couldn’t do that with Cliff.

Charlie: This guy had a special knack for intermediate to short pass and he also had a nice judgment of how fast everything went.

Charlie with Danny White, Tony Dorsett, Harvey Martin and Larry Cole on Family Feud taking on the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: Lets, talk a little bit about post football here. Well, first of all, I’m going to kind of go back in time a little bit. We haven’t touched on your better half, Rosie. Now Rosie has been just always a stunningly beautiful woman. So, tell me a little bit about how you guys met.

Rosie Holotik Playboy cover. Courtesy Playboy magazine.

Charlie: I helped pay for an advert for a motion picture. It was, in a horror movie. It was called “Don’t Look in the Basement”. You could still get it online. Rosie was starring in it. It was built by a company here in Dallas. She was nervous and it was a horror film. I owned a small piece of a restaurant called the Handle Bar restaurant.

So, we offered to have a party to push this new movie that was coming out at our spot. All Dallas, all people who texted us, all people started. It were from Texas. There were players that were in it. Some, a couple of guys where really big because they were, they wanted people being very dramatic. So, I met Rosie there and I fell in love with her. That moment, that day, that night, I don’t know what she thought about me. Who is this guy!

“Don’t Look in the Basement” movie poster. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: (Laughs) Who does he think he is?

Charlie: No, she didn’t know that I was a football player. I know that.

Paul: Really?

Charlie: Not at first she researched me, just like I researched her. I had been waiting a long time for someone like this to come into my life.

Paul: You where smitten.

Charlie: I was smitten. She could sing, dance, she was on Broadway. She performed on Broadway, she was all over, into their model magazine and she’s still very pretty.

Paul: Absolutely

Charlie appearing in an ad for Ken’s Menswear, 1982. Photo courtesy Charlie Waters

Charlie: Let me go back real quick and then remember where you are right in that highlight the interesting thing about me telling, if you’re in the collection, you’ve mentioned, we don’t do exactly what the defense wants. You damn sure better make the play.

Paul: Right, because you’re on an Island.

Charlie: Against Minnesota before the Hail Mary passed, I dodged it back. I went on the sidelines and asked Gene if I could dodge it back because we both knew what the play was going to be, because they had done the exact same. It was third and two before. This was third and one before and it’s, I guess, third and two. We just knew that he was successful the time before. So, we just knew that he was going to do the exact same play.

Paul: Exactly.

Charles: Just let me try to juke the fullback because they think I’m just going to stand up there and turn the play in like I always do. And he got first down last time they did that. When he does it, I think I can juke that guy, Gene. I don’t know if you can pay attention to early in the film, but Gene said – He looked me in the eyes and he looked at as all sober. He said, “Well, hell Charles, if you don’t make the play, we’re both going to get fired.”

Nobody remembers that. Nobody remembered that play. It’s just a typical unsung hero type of person that happens with me. Not very much credit.

Paul: I love that kind of stuff. And to me it’s so much more than the guy that makes the long touchdown or anything. It’s that unsung guy. The guys up front too, that make that play and they make that stop. And it’s maybe half a yard gain. And then, the next play it’s a half a yard short of a first down. It’s because of that play before, when he stopped him for half a yard gain. You know? So, all these things, they all add up. That’s why it takes 10 yards to get a first down. All these little plays all the – Sorry I’m preaching there.

Charles: Somebody had to jump on the grenade.

So, well, I was going to say the last two years of our career after I had that interior cruciate, I came back and Cliff retired. And so, my last two years, he played 10 years I played 12, so that’s where they used the thing they called Charlie’s Angels. Which had four rookies in the backfield, Everson Walls who was a free agent.

Paul: Oh yeah, Cubby.

Charles: Dennis Thurman. Yeah, Cubby. What a stud. Dennis Thurman was playing for me and a guy named Ron Fellows, we just called him Tweety Bird because he was so skinny. But I had all young kids back here, and here I was 11 or 12-year veteran. I played all the positions.

I knew exactly what they’re supposed to do. They depended on me and I loved it. I loved that responsibility. Maybe it’s a frustrated way of exercising my quarterback. We sure had a lot of responsibilities, but I took it on and I enjoyed it. I really did. And we had a great two years.

It ended with the catch at San Francisco –

Paul: Dwight Clark. Yikes!

Charles: Clay pellets poured out onto the field to soak up the mushy field that Candlestick had. Candlestick Park, it’s under the ground level of water.

So, it’s just always mushy, but really mushy this game. So, then they painted in green and you painted white on there.

Paul: Oh boy.

Charles: They had the whole field like that. And so, when I looked around and I saw the play, and Dwight Clark make the catch – It was not Everson’s fault by the way, it was somebody else’s fault.

I remember falling to my knees, and dropping down face first onto the field, because my career was over.

Paul: Oh, wow.

Charles: And I thought I was getting in my career and getting most valuable player at the Superbowl.

You got to think big, right?

Paul: Sure.

Charles: So, I ended my career with my face buried in green kitty litter. That’s a line for ya right there!

“So, I ended my career with my face buried in green kitty litter.”

Charlie Waters

Paul: Who was the free safety for you that last two years?

Charles: Michael Downs.

Paul: Oh yeah, that’s right.

Charles: Yeah. A kid from down here, right here in South Dallas or something like that. Everson was raised right here in Dallas.

Paul: Right. Hamilton Park.

Charles: Hamilton Park, yeah.

Paul: I know Cubby a little bit. So, did you know, you remember, Beasley Reece by chance?

Charles: Oh sure.

Paul: We were in Boy Scouts together in Waco.

Charles: What a good guy. He’s such a good guy.

Paul: Yeah. I know. I think, he’s in Philly now, if I remember correctly.

Charles: Is he coaching?

Paul: No, he was doing some sports casting or something up there.

Charles: Oh, that’s right. I remember that.

I hope he’s doing well and very successful. He deserves it.

With all these conversations Paul, you going to write a book? What are you going to do?

Paul: No, just one interview. If you’ve read any of the ones we’ve done, I like to find out more about the person and even football stuff.

Now, you auditioned for Channel 4, sportscaster at one point, didn’t you?

Charles: Yeah.

Paul: How’d that go?

Charles: It didn’t go very well. Let me just say about my time as a sportscaster, whatever it’s called. Did it for two years. Tom Brookshier was my play by play guy.

Paul: Solid announcer.

Charles: Tom Brookshier was a colorful character. He was in front of me under Pat Sommerall.

Paul: Yes.

Charles: They split them up and he became a play by play guy. And he was my play by play guy, and he was doing more color than I would do. And we were doing a game at Philadelphia on the road and they were talking about some corner, some black corner, and Tom said, “You know, he probably doesn’t have an IQ greater than a decimal point but he can damn sure play football.” And the telephone rang in our booth and they fired his butt on the spot.

Paul: Holy cow.

Charlie: And I didn’t have nothing to do with it.

Here’s the other thing I didn’t like about doing that stuff, they just threw you out there and if you did well, great. If you are not a natural, you’re gone.

So, what does a guy have to depend on to be successful in this game of football? It’s preparation. Study. Learn. Do it the right way. Take no prisoners.

Paul: Sure.

Charlie: You know? The credit belongs to the person that’s in the arena. It’s not the people that criticize them. So, if they would have just had a couple people giving him some, “Watch the film with me.” But they wouldn’t do it. They just gave it a shot and it didn’t take.

They knew I knew a lot about football and used to compliment me a lot off the air. He say, “You really know a lot about what’s going on.”

We might have been able to pull out of it but why they gave me a newbie, what do you call it? A newbie play by play guy. Why don’t they give me somebody that –

Tom was actually first year’s play by play guy and he went back to doing college. He was a very colorful person.

Tom Brookshier and Pat Summerall. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Pat Summerall. They were great. If I had Pat Summerall, I would have done a little bit better. You think Tony Romo is doing good because he’s Tony Romo? He knows an awful lot about stuff and he has the gift of gab.

He’s just a colorful stuff, but he’s got the best play by play guy in the world.

Paul: Yeah.

Charlie: He’s got no excuses.

Paul: What do you think about Troy.

Charlie: No excuses. Yeah. I like Troy. Good announcer.

Paul: So, you went to Denver as a coach.

Charlie: Yeah. I remember in the 80s, the real estate market went to hell in a hand basket and I was in the real estate business at that time, and had a lot of success. A lot of success. And then, it went south. And Dan Reeves always told me, he said, “Look, any time you want to get into coaching…”

Coach Landry offered me a job right when I retired. He said, “But I want you to take this personality test.” And I went, “Excuse me?” I was kind of – I was a little bit taken aback by that because I played with him for 12 years. He knew my work habits and how much I would study. And he wants me to take a personality test to find out what kind of person I am? After 12 years? And my pride got in the way and I really, really made a mistake right there. I should have gone and coached because now, with that staff that we had, and just all the stability and all the winning and all the history and I didn’t do it. I was too prideful. And I regret that.

Steve Atwater listens to advice from Coach Charlie Waters during Broncos practice inside the bubble on May 16, 1989. Courtesy John Leyba, Denver Post file

So, when Dan Reeves told me, he pulled me aside and said, “Look, if you ever want to get into the coaching business again, or if you want to try to get into coaching, just give me a call. I’ll make a spot for you.” He did. I became a co-kicking team coach with Mike Nolan. Mike was at Denver for seven years. Loved him. Great guy.

Paul: And Mike was your coach at Dallas?

Charlie: His dad did. His dad, that’s where he got his IT.

Paul: That’s right, Dick Nolan.

Charlie: Dick Nolan. Mike has got the pedigree. He coached a lot of other places but I don’t think he came to Dallas ever.

And the only time I coached with him was at Denver. I coached seven years and then I got fired with Wade (Phillips) as head coach and I was defensive coordinator. Difficult times.

So, then I took a job at University of Oregon, I was the defensive coordinator. And I loved it. I really, really enjoyed working at the University kids because they’re they are young and eager. They knew I had pedigree and they knew that I knew what I was talking about and I made them better and they were good.

Number 2 in the nation, number 1 in Pac-10.

Cody and Charlie Waters, courtesy Charlie Waters and St. Marist

At then at the end of the season, before we were going to go to the bowl game, my son died in his sleep.

Paul: Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry.

Charlie: He was 18 years old. Two weeks before his 18th birthday. And I don’t know how I coached the game because the game was like seven days away or 10 days away. I obviously didn’t coach very good, we got killed.

It was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to deal with, ever. And I dealt with a lot of stuff as far as personal issues.

Beyond comparison. Yeah. You just don’t know. There’s a Chinese proverb, well actually a Chinese character, you know those little characters they draw?

Paul: Sure.

Charlie: And the symbol for perseverance is a dagger and a heart intertwined together and you spend the rest of your life, when you lose a child, you spend the rest of your life with a dagger lodged in your heart. I I think about it every day.

That’s what happened. We lost the Cotton Bowl and we moved back to Dallas.

My wife told me, she said, “Look, we got to get back to Texas.” Where all my family is. It was killing her.

And so, we came back here and I kind of straggled around trying to figure out what’s going on in the world.

Paul: So sorry for your loss. Sounds like a great kid.

Charlie: Cliff Harris was starting a new company with Kelsey Warren called Energy Transfer. So, they invited me to be part of it, which was great. Ray Davis, the guy that owns the Rangers. He and Kelsey offered me a job.

Ray was co-founder of Energy Transfer and of course Energy Transfer is very, very, very successful. So, I work with Cliff again. Crazy.

Paul: What a great friend. They’re rare. They really are.

Charlie: They’re rare.

Paul: Tell me about the Animal House.

Charlie: Ah, we called it the ‘Animal Farm’. Named after the book.

Paul: George Orwell!

Charlie: I had married my college sweetheart my rookie year. In a few years, I got a divorce and that’s when I bought the Animal Farm which was on Fair Oaks between Skillman and Abrams.

Paul: Oh, wow.

Charlie: And I drive by it every day.

It was an old house. Still there. Right there at one of the roads that cut through the ridge out there.

It was a great business deal because I knew a little bit about it, so. It was zoned for multi-family. It is still a single, three-bedroom home. Four of us lived there. Like Animal Farm. We had lots of animals – Mike Montgomery was one of my buddies that played with the Cowboys. He would come over an awful lot. Rex Kirby was an Animal Farm original. A girl named Fran lived with us too. And Phil Weir. And it was all crazy.

I just saw Phil this past week.

Paul: In Aspen?

Charlie: Yeah. In Glenwood Springs. Close to Aspen, yeah.

Phil’s genuinely a good person.

Paul: Yeah, I like Phil a lot man. Very helpful with a lot of things here.

Charlie: We used to play a game called Roofball where you get a volleyball and leave it on top of the roof. We had a single-family ranch house. So, a two-man team volleyball as it rolls off the roof. You can either hit it or let it bounce, get it, kind of like tennis. And we played our ass off. We had a gym, 10 station – I forgot what they called those gyms back then.

Paul: Like a universal gym?

Charlie: Universal gym. Exactly what it was.

Paul: Yeah.

Charlie: I was in shape. Unbelievable what I was doing. All the working out that I did. I really dedicated myself to becoming a professional. I knew that my time was coming to be strong safety someday soon, so I needed a lot more bulk. And I got. Bought my own damn gym.

Paul: Yeah. Well you know that Bob Ward’s brother, Frank – that was the guy that developed Universal Gym. All the stuff for Universal, that equipment; that was a Frank Ward product.

Charlie: Wow.

Paul: There you go. The Ward family helped you again.

Charlie: Bob Ward is a big reason why I had success. He changed the way I thought about stuff so he’s really special.

Paul: I met him three or four times when Frank was around there. Very innovative guy. I remember I think he was so much like that Tom House, I believe it was, for the Rangers. That had him throwing footballs instead of throwing the baseball. Odd things that weren’t quite the same motion. Crazy.

Charlie: Right. When I was coaching the defensive backs, I used to throw tennis balls at them. Because tennis balls bounce off your hands.

Paul: Sure.

Charlie: You have to give a little when you catch it.

Paul: Oh.

Charlie: Somebody taught that to me. I think my brother taught that to me. He’d toss them where he used to fire them at me as hard as he could, and I’d catch them. If they bounced off your hands, then you’re going to drop that football eventually.

It was quite the coaching technique.

Paul: Is there anything that you would like for me to add to this, that nobody’s asked? I can’t imagine too many questions haven’t been asked from you.

Charlie: This is pretty thorough based on how many times I’ve been interviewed. I guess this is the most thorough interview ever as a matter of fact. I’ve gone into personal stuff nobody every asked.

Paul: Well thank you, we like to get more of the story! Tell Rosie hello for me.

Charlie: Absolutely! I will say this about Rosie. The one thing was that she was very professional. She was always about her business. That helped me in my professionalism. She taught me a lot. I might have been a little lax, having lived at the Animal Farm.

Well, Paul. Thank you very much for your time.

Paul: Absolutely.

Charlie: And all your patience. Telling war stories.

Paul: Folks love to hear these, it was a great time to be a Cowboy but also to be a Cowboy fan.

Charlie: Okay, thank you.

Paul: If you ever need anything, holler at me.

Charlie: Okay. All right, Paul. Thank you very much, sir. That was fun.

Paul: All right, sir. Have a good day.

Charlie: Bye.

Charlie Waters, Courtesy Dallas Cowboys Weekly, 1983

“Yeah, it’s amazing,” says Charlie Waters, leaning back in his patio chair. “Even now I can be off in the backwoods somewhere and when somebody recognizes who I am they’ll say, ’Oh yeah. Charlie Waters. Yeah, I remember that Harold Jackson game.”
Charlie smiles his boyish smile. “Yeah, I guess I’ve had a pretty weird career. It’s never far from chicken salad to chicken s**t…”
courtesy DMagazine, December 1977

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SMILING SAMMY WALKER

PAUL HECKMANN — Thu, 14 Jan 2021 20:15:13 +0000

Shot Put Record Setter and US Olympian

Interview by Paul Heckmann, Exec Director, Memories Inc

Edited by Katherine Connella Weissmann

Paul Heckmann: Hey, Sammy. Paul Heckmann here.

Sammy Walker: Hello, Paul.

Paul: We’ve got a to talk about so let’s get right to it. Are you from the Dallas area originally?

Sammy: Born at Parkland Hospital.

Mom Dolores, Dad Sam Jr, sister Vicki and young Sammy. Rumor is Sammy had just shotputted his pacifier to the other side of the room…

Paul: Sisters and brothers?

Sammy: One sister, an older sister.

Paul: Tell about where you went to school.

Sammy: Ascher Silberstein Elementary, Blanton in 6^th grade, then back to Silberstein, John B. Hood Junior High. And W.W. Samuell High School

Paul: When did you find out you were really good at sports?

Sammy: Oh, probably when I was about 12. My dad was a great athlete at Woodrow Wilson High School, before the war. He was second place in state championships in discus throw. He bought me a shot put for Christmas in ’63.

Paul: And that was one of the little eight-pound shots?

Sammy: Yes.

Paul: So, from what I understand, also, in ’64, I heard that you were talking to your dad when you were watching the Olympics on television, and you told him that’s what you’re going to do for your life was going to be in the Olympics.

Sammy: Yep. And he said, “Sam, you have no idea how hard that is.” I said, “I don’t care, daddy. I’m going to do it anyhow.” I was driven as a young boy. That’s for sure.

Paul: Thirteen years old. To say you’re going to be in the Olympics and actually do it, that’s pretty impressive.

Now since your dad was in discus, he probably had a good idea about other track and field events

Sammy: Yeah, he threw the shot, also. He just was a lot better, and the first day we

Sammy’s Dad, a WWII Marine.

went to work out, I’ll never forget it, I threw 33 feet, and he threw 50. Because he was obviously a young man, and he was a homebuilder at the time, and in good shape. He had a pretty big backyard so we built a shot put ring. It was about two feet on our next door neighbor’s property, and we had to tear that part up. So we rebuilt it in the backyard, and ended up throwing across a creek. If you didn’t threw over 35 feet, it would roll back into the creek. It was the bank, the shot put ring.

Paul: (laughs) “Son, you’ve got to go clean the rust off your shot.”

Then the Olympics came on TV in ’64.

Sammy: I was in eighth grade. I was the big champ in the eighth grade, big champ in the ninth grade, and got ready to go to the summer amateur state championships down in Tyler Station. That was my ninth grade year. I said, “Dad, what are my chances of winning state?” And he goes, “Son, this is a big state.” Got down there, and there was a boy that had a big old black hairy chest, throwing over 60 feet in warm ups. My best throw, at that particular time was like 58 feet. My first throw was 60 feet, and the big hair chest guy, he choked. So, I beat him about three feet.

Paul: That’s pretty impressive.

Sammy: That’s what kicked the gate down, yeah.

Paul: Now, when did you start playing football?

Sammy: I played in the sixth grade. We had a really great team in Blanton. I went to Blanton for one year. We had so many great athletes. We were undefeated. There were nine kids on that Blanton team, and they graduated and had full scholarships to colleges. That’s how talented they was, then. Then, I went back to Silberstein in seventh grade, and played there. And of course, played at Hood and later at Samuell HS.

Paul: Where is Hood located?

Sammy: It’s in southeast Dallas, near the intersection of Jim Miller and Scyene.

Paul: Did you do any other sports in school?

Sammy: Yeah. Actually, in eighth grade, I did all four sports. I played a little basketball. A little bit of baseball. And the funny thing about it, I was a pretty terrible basketball player. The coach looked at me, and said, “Sam, you did shot put last year, didn’t you?” I said, “Yes, sir.” He said, “You need to stick to that.” He kind of encouraged me not to play.

Paul: When you did first feel like you had a shot at breaking the national record?

Sammy: I started taking Track and Field News in ’64. And so, that gave me a hunger for what everybody was doing around the country, and in the world, too. And in ’64, I started reading what the national record was. Dallas Long had the national record. Randy Matson had the second record. I became familiar, and the record was 69 feet, 3 inches. Dallas Long was also the Olympic champion in 1964. So I made up my mind in ’64 that I was going to be the first 70 footer.

Paul: And you did it. Tell me about it.

Sammy: My first big event was I wanted to break the 16-year-old world junior record in the shot put, and some guy had thrown 63’9” from California. And I was state champion that year to maybe 63’? 62’9”, or something like that, right? And I was about a foot away from breaking the record. My birthday’s in August. You know, you’ve got your track meets in June and July. Summer meets. So, I had two or three chances to go over the 16-yer-old record. And in Richardson, Texas. I was totally by myself that day. I threw at 64’6”, so they measured it, and surveyed it, and everything. I got credit for the 16-year-old record my junior year. I was state champion my junior year. The following year, as soon as football season’s over, I hit it hard. I began to train hard. Throwing, lifting. Don Randall with Sunset was my training partner, so we were going crazy. We were doing more than anybody in the country. That’s all we did and we loved it.

My very first track meet of the year was at Carrollton. I believe it was late February. Maybe early March. And the record was 69’3”, and I threw. My legal throw was 69’11¾”, but it was really over 70’, but the guy doing the measuring, he kept pulling it. He didn’t want it to be a 70 footer, and so he made damn sure it wasn’t. (Laughs) He had something against me, because he was a college thrower, and he was Russell Cohimosi. He was Randall’s SMU assistant coach. We trained with him and he was a pretty good thrower with a 16 pounder. He’s a Texas State University guy. I could beat him with a 16 pounder, and he didn’t like that.

Sammy on the cover of ‘Track and Field’ circa 1968

He got to college, and I was still beating him, so there he is measuring this track meet. And Randall’s kept asking, “What is he doing? It’s 70’1”.” And no, 69’11¾”. Then, I progressively broke the record every week. Broke and rebroke the national record, and continued my perfection of 70 footers, until it was 72’3¼” at little state meet, down in Forest Brook. One of them probably fell about 73’ at state meet in Austin, but the night before the state meet, my dad had a heart attack. And I threw 72’. One of the worst throws of the year at 68’. And I think I only had two throws that year under 70’, after the first one, and state meet was one of them.

Paul: Was your dad okay?

Sammy: Yeah. But he wasn’t there, and it was devastating for me. I threw 68’, which is like an average practice throw for me.

Paul: So, what was your top throw in high school?

Sammy: 72’3¼”.

Paul: Amazing. I remember thinking how great 45’ was when I watched Barry Joe Pledger throw it at Midway (my little HS).

Sammy: Randall threw 62’ his junior year, and there was a guy by the name of Marx. We had three 60 footers right here in the Dallas area, but we were very competitive. And in nine months, I got a scholarship offer to University of Alabama. The next year, I was national champion in the shot put. We had a great time, a great few years there.

Paul: So, you’re doing really well in high school. At what point did you feel that you were going to go to college and throw the shot?

Sammy: The whole time. I knew that I was going to get a scholarship. You know about Randy Matson? He had promise. I met him at the Texas relays my senior year, we were able to meet. I was honored for that to happen. And this was ’68.

Randy, ’67 was his senior year in college. He wanted me to go to A&M. This is my junior year and I was just throwing 62 or three feet, and he was state record holder. And he introduced himself to me, and said, “I want you to do track at A&M.” I said, “Yeah, that’d be great.”

So, he graduated in ’67, my junior year. He was a senior in college. He’s five years older than me. And so, when it comes time for national signing date, Randy Matson is nowhere to be seen around A&M. He went to New York City as a junior stockbroker for one year, and was apologetic.

So, I had to make a decision. I said, “Hey, I guess I’ll just stay at home, with my mama’s cooking and my girlfriend.” I had a girlfriend at the time, who I ended up marrying. [Laughs] And so, I went to SMU instead of A&M. I should have gone to A&M. I probably would have had a much better career had I gone to A&M and worked under Matson. But it wasn’t meant to be.

Paul: And you had a pretty good time at SMU from what you told me.

Sammy: Way too much fun. It’s a party school. It was 1970. I was a strait-laced boy. And then, I told you I got married and then I got a quick divorce. We were married about nine months, and then she left me. And another strange story: I was playing football at SMU, 1970. I weighed 255 pounds.

Paul: Were you playing fullback?

Sammy: I played two different positions. I played fullback part of the time, and then I went to tackle. .I left school at 255. My wife left me, and I lost 50 pounds that summer. I weighed 205. I worked at Jackhammer, at Lakewood State Bank. I played golf all day. And I showed up to see Hayden Fry in late August of that year. And I walked into his office. You know what he told me?

Sammy for the Track and Field Hall of Fame

Paul: What?

Sammy: “Can I help you, son?” He didn’t recognize me. He didn’t recognize me! So, I played football that year, the fall of ’70. I was fullback. And see, I gained a lot of weight my freshman year. My freshman year was a terrible year. But I saw Karl Salb, this big shot putter from Kansas. He went from high school, weighing 230, and then weighed 285 when he started throwing shot put. The 16-pound, way out there. So I thought I needed a bunch of weight my freshman year. I gained 30 sorry pounds. And they used to do those caricatures in the paper about people you know and sports. They did a caricature of me, and they showed me with three chins. I had two or three of those caricatures. What’s that guy’s name?

Paul: I know exactly who you’re talking about. Bill McClanahan.

Sammy: And Bucky used to interview me. Randy Galloway was a high school boy who interviewed people.

Paul: It was probably about his prime time, there, too.

Sammy: There’s two things that kept me from being an Olympic champion. Injuries, which were a big factor, and I went from a strait-laced boy to a party boy, drinking too much. And everybody was drinking. Everybody was drinking. And I played hard. Don’t get me wrong, but the drinking slowed me down. In 1971, I was ranked 39 in the world in the shot. And then, at the time of the Olympic trials pulled around, I was ranked to make the Olympic team.

But that particular year, Randy Matson, George Woods, and Brian Oldfield did the same. And everybody was going crazy in spring of ’72, throwing far, and I was going not as far as those guys. In 1971, at the national championship, Matson threw one 67’. Feuerbach threw 66’ for second, and I threw 65’ for third. And when we got off the stand, Matson was 6’7” and Feuerbach was 6’, he pat him on the shoulder, and he said, “That’s a pretty good throw for a short guy.”

Guess what? I don’t know if you know this, but the short guy broke his world record next year. I like to think I was 6’1”, but I was 6’. So was Feuerbach. He was 6’, and we both were short and stocky. Matson, of course, was 6’7”. 6’7” was the range, and dominated the world for all these years.

And I’ll tell you a little story. At the Olympic trials, I almost slapped Randy Matson in the face. I swear. At the trials in ’72, it was Oldfield, Woods, and Feuerbach. They weren’t throwing that far. They were throwing around 68’-69’ range. And Matson was in fourth place, about four inches. On his last throw, he had to throw four inches farther.

I walked up to Randy and said, “Randy, you’ve got to throw another four inches further.” I wanted to motivate him, but instead, he shrugged his shoulders downward, and said, “I know it.” I said, “I know you can do it.” And I swear, if I slapped the man in the face, he might have made the Olympic team. That’s what I felt like doing. I couldn’t believe it. He had lost his competitive edge. When he threw, that ’64 to seventy – that eight years he dominated the world. Then the rest of the world caught up with him and he wasn’t able to compete like he should have.

I was good, actually. I wasn’t the greatest, but my success came from out working everybody. Period. Nobody was going to out train me. My biggest problem was overtraining. I didn’t have a coach, and overtraining’s not good, either.

I had two serious injuries in one year with throwing the javelin, with big old packs on. I kept throwing further, and further, and further. 210’. For a shot putter, that’s pretty good. And I hit the last throw. I was throwing against the javelin, and I curved my knee, and the spikes caught the ground, and slightly tore a ligament for my knee.

I was running a 40-yard dash against Paul Bradley. Beat him at a 40-yard dash, running 4.5. All the coaches were out there timing. And I pulled a hamstring. Anyhow, I had two or three injuries, and I guess it had an infection. I was in the infirmary for nine days, sick as a dog. Right in the middle of track season. And I can say, you know what? I would have gotten through all that had I not been a drinker.

I don’t feel sorry for myself. I made decisions, made some bad decisions. Made a lot of good decisions, too, but those bad decisions really kept me from being just the top ten in the world to the top two, to where I could actually make the Olympic team, have a chance for a medal, and stuff like that.

Who was that working with the Cowboys that I maybe talked to for two or three hours, one time? One of the first Super Bowls of the black running back?

Paul: Duane Thomas?

Sammy: Yes, Duane Thomas. He walked up to my shot put ring and was destitute. He didn’t have a vehicle. And we talked for a long time.

Paul: Tell me a little bit about in college. I remember you telling me the other day that you had some insight on Hayden Fry.

Sammy: Yes. Hayden, he shared with us the exact details when he had all his letter-men with him, when he and Jerry Levias were put in the Hall of Fame, 12 years ago, whatever. And we’re all up there, and we were up there for all day long, drinking beers, telling stories, and each one of us individually got to talk to him.

I had a couple of incidents with Hayden Fry that was great. One time, it was spring game. I was playing fullback, and there were coaches, of course, behind the huddle. And they called out the play that went to me. I was going for a touchdown, and I wanted to be dang sure I made the touchdown go through. And then I saw a linebacker coming in on me.

I thought, if I run a wedge to the linebacker, cut and spring into the end zone, he’s going to tackle me before I get there. That’s out. So, instead of just trying to run away from him, I turned toward the linebacker and ran right through him into the end zone and made the touchdown. And I went back to huddle. Hayden and all the assistant coaches, they were just laughing their butts off. They said, “I’ve never seen that before! I’ve never seen that before!” I knew he couldn’t bring me down if I headed straight over him.

And the key play, when we’re playing the University of Texas…you remember old Steve Wooster? The All American Fullback? I was wearing his number against scout team, and Joe Stetz was a linebacker. Anyhow, I ran up the middle about, I don’t know, two, three, or four times, making five, six, seven yards on the linebacker. And the defense coordinator was Utley. Greg Utley. You ever hear of that name? We called him Crazy Greg. He grabbed Joe Stetz and he grabs his facemask and he cussed him out. And that tobacco that comes out of your mouth, he slobbered it on his jersey, and – And he turned to Hayden Fry and said, “Run that play again!” Oh, my gosh. He knew right where I was going to be. He hit me with the greatest tackle, busted me good. I cracked a tooth. All but knocked me out. And I heard Fry say, “That Sammy Walker, sit out for the next play.” Guess what I did? I walked the next play.

I was in his office the next day, because I was on full scholarship for the shot put. I said, “Coach.” I said, “That shot put don’t hit back.” He laughed.

Paul: What a great personality. Hayden Fry.

Sammy: Hayden Fry was the greatest of the great. I loved that man.

I wasn’t a great football player. I was really quite average. See, when I was SMU as the fullback, I didn’t have that side to side speed, the quickness on left and right. That’s how I was.

Paul: Now, tell me about the Olympic trials and going out to the Olympics for the first time.

Sammy: Okay. Well, the Olympics – Here’s the deal with – Of course, I was in four separate Olympic trials. ’68, ’72, ’76, and 1980. One morning, Randy Galloway calls me. This is February of 1980, and I’m training with Michael Carter. Okay? So, he calls me about 7:00 on one morning. I was living there at the Lily Creek apartments, there. And this is in 1980. This was when my wife and I were going together, right before we got married.

And Randy Galloway calls me that morning, and this is ’80 now. I’m jumping ahead again. I apologize. I’ll tell the story, anyhow. Randy Galloway says, “Did you hear that Carter is boycotting the Olympic games?” And I’m thinking he’s talking about Michael Carter. I swear. And I said, “Why’d he do that?” And he said, “Because of Russia and Afghanistan.” I said, “What are you talking about?” And he said, “President Carter.” I said, “Well, hell, that affects me.”

The lift that vaulted Sammy into the Olympics. He never stopped smiling!

So, back in ’76, I’m ranked in the top 10 in the world in weightlifting and the shot put. I ranked in both shot put and weightlifting. And somewhere in the middle, there, about April, I see and discern that the Olympic trials in the shot put are June 15^th in Eugene, Oregon. Okay. And weightlifting, June 15^th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Paul: Oh, boy.

Sammy: And if it’s just a couple days apart, I’ve got a chance. I competed in the national championships in weightlifting and shot put were two separate days in Louisiana and California, and did fine. And so, they forced me to make a decision. So, here’s the deal. All the great shot putters in the world were in the United States in 1976. All the great weightlifters in the world were in Russia and Germany. I only had one competitor, Bruce Wilhelm. So, I had to – I knew full well that I could make the Olympic team in weightlifting if I just had an average day. Whereas, in the shot put, I had to have a great day. I had to go out there and throw my best to make it in.

And odds are, I would have been fourth or fifth place, because all they were throwing. Anyhow, I chose weightlifting, made the Olympic team in weightlifting. It was a life-changing event. Of course, everybody knew me as a shot putter, not a weightlifter. So, I made the Olympic weightlifting second sport. And “Why do you keep doing both?” And I said, “Well, I’m an Olympic lifter.”

I was the national champion in ’77, and national champion of shot put in ’77, and what the heck? I want to be a dual athlete. Herschel Walker was a dual athlete, and Deion Sanders and these other guys. I mean, I’m not in their category, but still, on top of the world in two different sports.

Paul: What were the lifts back then? Wasn’t clean and jerk one?

Sammy: It’s two. The press was taken out in ’72, so it was just snatch and clean and jerk. My best lifts were 480 pounds clean and jerk and 350 pounds snatch.

Paul: Wow.

Sammy: And I was state champion in weightlifting 11 straight years in Texas, and then national champion the one year in 1977. And competed all the way through in both sports all the way through the ‘70s.

Paul: I see that in 1972, it looked like you were actually going to make the team, but you broke your shoulder.

Sammy: Yes. Motorcycle. I bought me a little 350 Honda, this was ’71 and I got up one Sunday morning to go get the newspapers.

Wonder why I wanted to get a newspaper? Well, because I was on the front page of the newspaper. [Laughs] I’ve got a great scrapbook going, right? And so, I was driving, and one of my basketball buddies, he didn’t pay attention, see? He ran me into the curb. I said that 350 Honda wasn’t going but 20 miles an hour. Swerved in the curb. Well, as soon as I hit my left shoulder against the curb, you know what my biggest surprise was?

Paul: What’s that?

Sammy: I didn’t move the curb with my shoulder. It moved me. I jumped up to try to pick up my bike, and all of a sudden, no, you’re hitting the ground again. So, I was hurting pretty bad. This was at 8:00 in the morning, and I went all the way through until lunch, not even – the heck with it, you know?

And then, it was hurting so bad, I went to the infirmary, and my doctor, during this meeting, says, “Well, that’s the worst separation I’ve ever seen.” Broke my clavicle and severe separation. I was in great shape, in late ’71. Getting ready to tear up the world the next year, and it cost me. I could have made the team in ’72 in the shot.

Never got on a motorcycle ever again.

Paul: Okay, so, tell me about the Spoon Barbell Club.

Sammy: Well, Tom Witherspoon was a walk-on pole vaulter at SMU, one year older than me. A great guy. One of the top engineers in Dallas history, right now. He’s 72, now and still got his Spoon Barbell Club. Still trains kids. Spoon Barbell Club was second place in the national championship. He had a great team. Against the New York Barbell. We almost beat them, and nobody beats them.

I swear, the team was within a couple points of beating New York in the ’77 national championship. And yeah. Tom Witherspoon is brilliant. He’s my buddy. I talk to him a couple times a week. I talked to him yesterday morning. He’s a great, Christian guy, and I’ve known him since ’68. And he was a walk-on pole vaulter. He got way up high, about 14’6”, you know? That’s about all he did.

But when he started training in weightlifting, he got strong. And he’s a little guy, weighed 175. Anyhow, we had a great time. We had a lot of camaraderie at the barbell club. He’s got a ranch, now, in Texas. He’s got a 10,000 square foot metal barn where he puts all his weightlifting things up now.

Training for the 1976 Games

Paul: Okay. Now I’m going to jump back to the ’76 games. You were in the super heavyweight division. Isn’t that an open weight category?

Sammy: Oh, yeah. Weighed at over 242 pounds or 110 kilos, you’re within limit. So Vasily Alekseyev was the strongest man in the world. I lifted against him, and my claim to fame is I made the man look good. [Laughter]

Paul: Anybody that makes him look good is really doing something. (Sammy laughs). That man was built to lift weights. Now, he weighed up in the upper 300s or something at the time?

Sammy: Yeah. He weighed 385. He was huge, and he had a big gut. I didn’t speak any Russian, and he didn’t speak English so we didn’t really converse. He had a dozen eggs and whatever meats and stuff, plus a big old glass of vodka for breakfast. I watched him wash that thing down. The whole thing was very memorable, because we hadn’t much of a conversation. There wasn’t an interpreter there. But I trained with him a few times, working out, and at the Olympic games.

This was the first time they ever checked for steroids. They called me in for a urine sample one afternoon, the week before the conversation, about 2:00 in the afternoon. I went in, and gave them a urine sample and I was clean.

And as I was leaving, the Russian delegation walks in. “Where’s Alekseyev?” They said, “Well, he’s not going to be tested. We’ll just take him home.” And they said, “Oh, no. The stadium is – There’s 10,000 people that’ll be there watching him lift.”

So, the folks up top chose not to test him. Never happened, in the future. This was the first time, ever. This was a petri dish. When you think about the ’76 Olympic games, there’s three athletes you think about. You think about Vasily Alekseyev, you think about Bruce Jenner, and you think about Nadia Comaneci. Those three, maybe a few more in there, but otherwise, those are huge names. And Alekseyev, well he wasn’t tested. [Laughter]

Paul: Well, I remember in college, walking in there, and there was a little bowl on the table. And there’s these little blue pills in there. And I’m saying, “What are those?” And he says, “It’s Dianabol. Just whatever you want. Just grab them.” And I didn’t know what they were. I tried it out for a little bit. I didn’t really see much effect on me.

Sammy: You remember, Ivan Putski?

Paul: Oh, yeah. He was a stump. He was thick.

Sammy: Ivan Putski was. I don’t know if you remember that name. He was shot putter down in Texas. 6’6”, lean 335. So, Ivan Putski came up to me right before the Texas relays one year. And I mean, I looked at him, going, “Good God, I’ve never seen anybody look like that before.” He says, “I’ll bet you $100 that Butcher beats you today.” I said, “You’ve got it, buddy. You’ve got it.” [Laughter] I kicked his butt and won $100. I was almost scared to collect my money.

Well, one of the great wrestlers of all time was my old roommate at SMU. Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Most people don’t realize this, but when came to SMU, he was New York State wrestling champion. Not fake wrestling, real wrestling.

Jack Atkinson (aka Fritz von Erich), he came to me, and wanted me to train his son, Kerry. Actually, the year before that, he wanted me to wrestle. I said, “No, I ain’t going to do that.” I said, “I’m going to stick with shot and weightlifting.” Anyhow, I trained Kerry.

Paul: Wasn’t he state champ in discus?

Sammy: Of course. He almost broke the national record. I coached him. I wanted him to break the national record like he did.

Jack came to me, and introduced himself. And see, he was a SMU shot put record holder when I got to SMU.

Paul: I didnt know that!

Now, he got kicked out of SMU because he got married, didn’t he?

Sammy: Exactly. Most people don’t realize that exact truth. And you talking about Hayden Fry, you have to mention, I had to have permission from Hayden Fry to get married.

We talked. I sat in his office for part of an hour going over all the details to prove that I should get married in college and with a scholarship. And he okayed it. [Laughs]

Paul: Wow, man.

Sammy: And of course, Kerry … the drugs, and the draw of the ring, and all that, it just tore him up.

Paul: Now, they all would work out down at Doug’s gym. We’d go down there, and work out, and of course, all the guys from Sportatorium would be down there. Gino Hernandez, and King Kong Bundy.

Sammy: You know, they’re all great athletes.

Paul: Well, I still remember the Von Erich kids. They were all very polite.

Sammy: Oh yes. One of them came to my restaurant 15 years ago.

He came to me, and he sat down, and we had lunch. And I helped him on a land deal in Rowlett, because I knew everybody out here.

Paul: Yeah, he moved to Hawaii if memory serves, and has got two sons. I think they kind of flirt around with the wrestling, but they’re not…He was the smallest one of the bunch, outside of the very, very youngest brother that didn’t do much in it. But very much an athlete, still.

Sammy: I don’t know much, really, about the family, but they say that Jack was a hard ass.

I was at an event where they had SMU track team, and they took a picture of me, and Michael Carter, and a South African guy who broke Michael Carter’s school record. So, they had three school record holders in a row. They took our picture, and I told all three of them, I said, “Well, the most famous of the school record holders is not here.” They all looked at me real strange. I said, “Well, his name is Jack Atkinson.” And they go, “Who’s that?” I said, “You ever hear of Fritz Von Erich?” I said, “That’s him.” I said, “I broke his school record.” And nobody knew that. Nobody knows about the fact he lost his scholarship. He was on full scholarship for two years, and then he lost his scholarship because he got married. Of course, he was a serious classic. There’s – He was amazing. That was all – There was only one Fritz Von Erich, that’s for sure.

Paul: Oh, now tell me about the Queen of England.

US Olympic Weight Lifting Team

Sammy: This is the truth, here. I’m walking in on the Olympic opening ceremonies, and we’re the largest delegation, marching in with our little blue suits on. And I’m on the outside row, with the stands, and as we’re walking in, the queen is in her little box, there. And she’s waving at people, and I’m literally somewhere between around 15 feet away from her when I walk by. And I give you my word of honor, the lady winked at me when I went by. Either that, or she had something in her eye. I don’t know. Then, two hours later, I had lunch with her. Well, along with two thousand other guys.

Paul: Yeah, just a small, intimate lunch. All at the same table, too.

Sammy: Yeah. I was actually 15 feet away from her for 15 seconds, and she had her hot pink dress on, and the white gloves. Classic picture. And then, she came into the hall, and I got within about 50 feet. She’s still alive! Can you believe that? The Queen of England, she winked at me, and I thought that was pretty cool.

Paul: Did you consider going professional and working Europe, like a lot of Track and Field people did?

Sammy competing for Athletic Attic around 77-78

Sammy: Matson and some other folk started the ITA, International Track Association. There was four shot. You remember when they had those mostly indoor meets? Well, that was the pro track at the time, and Oldfield was there, Matson, Karl Salb, and Fred DeBenardi. From the athletes, that would be two little gangs, they started a deal, and it lasted about two to three years.

And when I came to Dallas, they allowed me to throw the shot against those four guys, as long as I didn’t make any money. And that was the night that I got to beat Matson. Oldfield won, and I got second, and I think Salb and DeBenardi, Matson after that. And that was at the Texas Stadium. They had an indoor track meet there.

Paul: So, about what year would that be?

Sammy: It had to have been ’73, ’74, ’75.

Paul: In between the Olympics

Sammy: Yeah, exactly.

And then, and I beat Matson. And he was going down to about 66’ or something like that. And Oakfield was making the big bucks, and he’s going crazy in the records, and then, of course, he was able to come back as an amateur after they took a lot time to get his amateur status back.

But as far as pro track, now. I think, what’s going on now in the world, that was way past my era. None of us was ever involved in any pro track.

Paul: Europe was the place to be for track for a long time.

Sammy: Oh, my God. I traveled in European tour, ’73, ’75, ’77 – We would go over there, US versus Russia. They would come over here, and we’d go over there. So, ’73, ’75, ’77, and ’79, I was in Europe competing every summer.

Paul: But you never were paid outright for that?

Sammy: No. We had our expenses and – And when we did California meets, we got a little money on the side.

Paul: Like a per diem or something?

Sammy: No. Cash money – I never picked up more than $3 or $4,000. Club would get $15,000 show up money.

As a matter of fact, Carl Lewis – They offered him a million dollars signing bonus in football, and you know what he told them? He said, “That’d be a paid promotion for me.” [Laughs]

Paul: Oh, he was good. He was so good.

Sammy: Yeah.

I love Sammy. Just one of the best, most sincere people you will ever meet. A really good man. There are people that come into your life that come and go. Not Sammy, he is there for you whenever you need him. Just one heck of a fella!

Burton Gilliam, actor 'Blazing Saddles' (and Sammy's golf buddy)

Paul: So about this time you ended up working at the Playboy Club.

Sammy: The Playboy Club. I’m so hazed on how long I was there. Damn, I was only there a week, 10 days. I got mononucleosis. I had just spent the summer competing in the shot put, and I was supposed to go – Then I was at Austin for the World Championship in Weightlifting. It was 1977, and I got to go to compete in wherever it was in Bulgaria. And I said, “Heck.” I literally was up there all summer long, and I just got back to working the Playboy Club. Then, I turned around and left, and I came back with mononucleosis.

Paul: Oh, boy.

Sammy: And it changed everything. It was a terrible year. ’78 was the worst year ever. ’79 I came back, and then ’80 had a pretty good year.

Paul: Tell me about the end of your competitive years. You moved on out of really competing, after, what? 1980? Around in there was your last big meet?

Sammy: Yeah. ’80 Olympic trials, my wife and I, we went up and stayed at the Olympic trials, I competed. I beat back McCarter in the Olympic trials, and somebody like that. And my good buddy, he got one, and we just – Anyhow. I threw well at the Olympic trials, and everybody threw around 66’, 67’, 68’, and I was right in the middle of the batch.

Paul: And here comes Randy Galloway?

Sammy: Uh-huh, yeah. So I am still competing but also helping to train Micheal Carter. I get a phone call from Randy Galloway with The Dallas Morning News. He says ‘Sammy, did you hear that Carter boycotted the Olympic games?’ I said, ‘Why the heck would he do that?’ Then he says President Carter and it clicked. My first thought was for Michael then it occurred ‘Crap, well that affects me too,’ To make a long story short, I eventually forgave the President.

When did you start coaching Michael Carter?

Sammy: His ninth grade year.

Paul: So, you were coaching him when he threw 81 feet?

Sammy: Here’s the deal, the truth of the matter.

When I say coaching… his sophomore year, Michael comes over to throw with me at SMU. I wasn’t with him all the time. I helped him, and I helped coach a little bit. His sophomore year – This is 1977. Okay, yes, because he’d be a senior in ’79. And so, that was a big year in ’77. He’s only 69^th on the high school shot puts, nine or 10 years before, and he’s throwing about 65 feet, with 12 pound, which is really good. And I’m throwing around 66 – somewhere in there, and the shot was a 16 pound.

I said, “Michael.” I picked up the 12 pound one time. I said, “This is how far you’re going to throw your senior year.” And I threw out through somewhere between 77 and 78 feet.

And that’s exactly where he would start throwing. except for that one throw. The legendary 81 footer was incredibly rare, unique, and I know that there were several special circumstances. I mean, he did it, and that’s why he broke the record.

Paul: I sit and watched a video that they had, and it looked like he just kind of walked up there, and did it, and didn’t prepare for it, or anything.

Sammy: Well, there was two things that happened before this, not on the video. The first, he was getting ready for his last throw, and he’s getting ready to kick across the ring, and the PA announcer comes on. And in his bad timing, he says, “Michael Carter in the shot put ring.” And Carter stops, because it breaks his concentration.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Sammy: And Michael Carter was right down to me. He wasn’t the type of people that really got psyched up. I always did. I was a crazy guy. I always get myself psyched up. He never was. He was low-key, very methodical, and very technical, and he was able to throw.

So, the next throw, this is what happened. He get ready to kick down and the shot put ring is close to the track. 800 meter runners were running by. About the time he bends down to get ready to kick across, and it breaks his concentration. He takes his shot put, and slams it into the concrete, and he is furious. He understands the extra adrenaline that he received from those two pissed off events made him throw 81 feet.

So, he had everything going right for him. And so, when he got to the ring, and all you saw was a technically sound throw that went to the very left side of the specter, because that’s how – he keeps pushing the shot put every little speck, every inch, 81 feet.

And I was competing down in Los Angeles. And the press people, as soon as we got off the victory stand, that was at the longest throw in the world, was at 69’ at that particular time. And they said, “Did you hear about Michael Carter throwing 81 feet?”

That particular day, truly, truly, there’s nobody on the planet that could’ve done what he did. Truly. Nobody.

Paul: It’s going to be a long, long time before that gets broken.

Sammy: Well, I think, here’s the deal, because I keep up with it a lot more than anybody in the country. A few years back, there was a kid that broke his freshman record. Broke his sophomore record and his junior record. He threw 73 feet or so his junior year. That’s what Carter’s junior record. And so, before, natural progression, well, he’ll – And I told all my friends. I said, I’ve got be lucky to throw 75 feet next year. Anything that 75 or 76, he can move two or three feet. I said, no way is he even going to approach 80 feet. And he didn’t.

So, this kid was an incredible athlete, obviously. Both Matson and Carter’s sophomore, freshman, sophomore, junior record. And he could sniff the 81 foot. So, you’re right. You know about the odds of that record being broken, and anybody that knows shot put knows full well that that’s just the most incredible thing done in the history of high school track and field.

Before that was Jim Brian’s record. Finally broke it. I’m a track historian, and I love the sport. Very good with all the records and et cetera.

So, that Michael Carter was No. 1: He was a great athlete. No. 2: he was incredibly dedicated. I threw a hundred throws a day in high school, and he threw 150.

Paul: Oh, man. People don’t understand that wears your arm out something fierce, when you pop that thing at the end.

Sammy: Yeah, so true.

Paul: Here it is, half a century later, and you’ve still a top 10 thrower of all time

Sammy’s still a Top 10 thrower half a century later. Courtesy Tx.Milesplit.com

Sammy: Yeah. Well, all you’ve got to do is think about the local track meets when you read the newspaper. Because 50 feet’s pretty good. 55 is usually going to win. If you go 60 foot, you’re good. And there’s a few 60 footers, and rarely anybody throws over 65 anymore.

Paul: You’re going to get a scholarship somewhere.

Sammy: And I threw 70 feet over 11 times my senior year. The memories are amazing. I was so quick and efficient at shot putting and it was a 12 pound. I just out-trained everybody. That’s what I always did. I out-trained everybody.

Paul: Well, it’s quite a feat to be there in the top 10, still, after…well, I think 52 years or 53 years, something like that. That’s just incredible.

Sammy: You know who my good buddy Roy Martin.

Paul: Yeah! Roy the Robot.

Sammy: Yeah, I just saw him on the board of directors of our Olympian group here in Dallas. After all these years, there’s been only one kid that broke his record, 100 meters.

Paul: Well, you kind of segued there to the next section. I talked to Earl a little bit when I told him I was going to be interviewing you, and he said – Now, he was president of Texas Olympians during the older days, and he said he “handed the baton to Sammy.”

Sammy: Yes, he did.

Paul: Yeah. Now, and you also serve as a director on the OORF. Now, tell me what’s OORF stand for?

Sammy: Okay. Olympics for Olympian Relief Fund.

Paul: Okay.

Sammy: He started that in ’99. As a matter of fact, just last year, the president of our local group was ’99. I took over in ’99. I did it for a little over 20 years, and did a really good job, because we did make a lot of money in our golf tournament. And of the 30 chapters around the country, probably us, and Florida, and California are actually the most reliable chapters in the country, because we’ve got money to work with.

So, yeah. Earl Young is great, and you may not realize this, but he’ll probably end up, this Monday, being lured in as the new president of the OORF, simply because John Naber – You’ve heard of John Naber?

Paul: The swimmer that won about a million Olympic medals?

Sammy: Thats him. They just got voted on the United States welcome committee, which has never happened before. No athletes have ever done that before, served on the United States welcome committee. So, we have two advocates now in the US – it’s not call the USO anymore. It’s the USOPC, United States Olympians Paralympics Coach Association. All that’s changed.

So, Earl will probably step up as the OORF president this coming Monday morning at our board of directors meeting. I’ve served for 15 years, and Earl has served for 22 years.

Paul: Can you tell me a little bit about his charity?

Sammy: Oh, my good buddy. What he does is travels throughout the country, swabbing people for – Kids and students. He does a great job. He’s all over the place all the time, and he does a wonderful job.

Paul: Was that for blood disease?

Sammy: Yes. See, about a few years ago, I was at a breakfast with him. He was a keynote speaker at one of those fancy breakfasts, $150 a person deal. And I was at the table with his wife and his family. And he was speaking, and the person walked up to him and just nudged him out of the way. And I stand, because I thought that was the strangest thing I ever saw. And he started talking in the middle of Earl’s presentation.

They had flown in the lady from Germany he had never met before, and this lady, she was one out of 10 million people that could save his life. And she saved his life, with the whole blood donor’s deal. And this was on camera, with his whole family and everything, and they were over there hugging for the better part of two or three minutes.

There was a standing ovation for – He had never met her before, so. Which ever since, he’s headed this foundation, and he’s thankful for having had his life saved, by having people swabbed to save other people. And there’s hundreds – I’m not sure exactly the number. Maybe thousands. You could ask him. But many peoples’ lives have been saved through the swabbing program.

Paul: So is the swabbing – What does that do? Do you know?

Sammy: Well, they put you in worldwide data of your blood type and your ability to be the perfect match for anybody in the world. The entire world, not just – So, if you’re on the data system, and somebody has a blood transfusion without particular blood they’re going to die – Earl was going to die within three months, had he not done it, and this lady in Germany was a match. It’s a bone marrow transplant.

For someone who doesn’t know anything about Earl Young, to say, “Yes, I’ll do it.”

I visited Earl during his decline several times, and he was on his death bed. The fact that he kept doing this after he was healed tells you what kind of person Earl is.

Paul: Oh, wow. Let me give him a plug here for doing that

Earl Young’s Team

Tell me about Dorothy Franey Langkop.

Sammy: [Laughs] Oh, boy. How much time you got?

Paul: I wish I had known her. She sounds like a hoot.

Sammy: She’s one the most unique women in my life. To give a quick overview – She’s close friends with our family, and she lived to be 97. I put on a golf tournament in her name, and she was alive for the first golf run about 12 years ago. And she was in 1932 speed-skating Olympian, and she was ’32, ’36 Olympian, and she was amazing. They say she beat Babe Dickerson in golf one time.

Dorothy – She took me under her wing when I made the Olympic team, and treated me just – fun. I promise, of course, I’m a long-time friend with both her sons.

Paul: Sure.

Sammy: One of them’s a good guy, and one of them is a good (Laughs) Just kidding… both of them are good guys

Dorothy Franey Langkop was a truly amazing athlete. She was an ambassador. Here’s the deal. She spent a six-week stint at the Adolphus Hotel to skate and entertain people. And it went from six weeks to 16 years.

She was the toast of Dallas. She knew the Hunts. She was the toast of Dallas. My mother used to go down and watch Dorothy when she was a young lady. And truly good character. A lovely, strong woman.

I instated the Dorothy Franey Langkop Awards Program about 15 years ago at Coolhouse Springs. There’s a lot of great athletes who have received that award. The Dorothy Franey Langkop Ambassador Award. And guess who won it this year?

Paul: Who?

Sammy: Me!

Paul: No kidding!

Sammy: Yeah. And of course, I didn’t get to go. They didn’t have a presentation because of COVID.

Paul: What a year to win.

Sammy: Yes. What a year to win.

Dorothy and I worked to create the Olympic Alumni Organization and the Olympians for Olympians which helps Olympians in financial need because of illness, natural disasters etc. I was the founding Chairman and still serve on the Board. I was Pres of Texas Olympians during those days and handed the baton to Sammy. Sammy serves as a Director of the OORF also.

Earl Young, Gold Medalist in Rome, 1960

Paul: Now, tell me about pulling your neighbor out from his house in 2016. The tornado.

Sammy: Oh, yeah. That was – Well, there was a tornado that came through and hit 40 real bad, a couple three years before that. Lisa and I built a tornado shelter in our garage prior to it, so we had a tornado shelter in our garage. And we were inside it, and when we got hit. And as soon as I walked out to the door, I hear him screaming. They’re about 60 feet away, across the way. Everything’s just devastated.

We get in there, and he’s looking for his sister. They’re Jamaican. And we looked in there. His arm was broken in half, and his lung was pierced, and – They couldn’t get a firetruck around. And so, I put him in my suburban, and I – The hospital is only about two, three minutes away, but it was 20 minutes because of the traffic and the debris. Finally, got him there, and they wanted to stop me and say, “No, we’re full.” I said, “No, you’re not full for this guy.” And I just pushed right by.

Sammy’s next door neighbors house

They care-flighted him to Parkland Hospital, and he died 10 days later. He was the only casualty in Rowlett. And his sister was very happy. She had him for 10 more days. He would have died that night, for sure, if I hadn’t gotten him out.

Paul: People don’t understand just how nasty tornadoes can be.

Sammy: Everybody tried to call me a hero, and I said, “No. You can call me a Good Samaritan if you want to, but I would have done this for anybody else, and hoped they would have done it for me.”

Paul: Well, it’s good that you were prepared and had that tornado shelter, too. And decided you didn’t want to wait out by watching TV in your house, which a lot of people do, and say, “It will go past me.” That’s the odds — that it’s going to go past you. Right? But it doesn’t in a lot of times.

Sammy: So true.

Paul: It’s so true, exactly. You know, we’ve been talking for nearly two hours here.

Sammy: Is that right?

Paul: Yeah, it’s an hour and 52 minutes, I think. Something like that.

Sammy: Who knew.

Paul: You excelled at so many things that I tried, and I can appreciate it, from my end, because I know the dance of the shot put. A lot of people, they try and try, like me. We just simply can’t do it.

Sammy: It’s an art.

When you’re teaching kids that do this, and it is a little hard, I’m going, “Well, you’ve got to stay with it. You’ve got to keep trying. Keep trying, keep trying.” So – It’s not easy. There’s just no any way to put it.

Paul: So how did you get into the food industry?

Sammy: That’s an easy answer. When I was growing up, my mom was a great cook. She was a country girl, and when I was 6, 7, 8 years old, I realized one thing’s for sure. If you were in the kitchen helping your mama cook, you got the first bite. For a child, that’s important, right?

So, I always helped my mom in the kitchen. And therefore, I thought to myself, “Wow, I think it’d be cool to have a steakhouse one of these days.” 10 years old, I’d like to have a restaurant. And we wanted to try a barbecue place, and it worked out to where, in ’85, it became available – And of course, I went bankrupt in an oil field, you know, when Katrina hit. I went into bankruptcy there in Texas.

Paul: Wow.

Sammy: We talked a lot, and there’s still a lot more, but what’s most important is, yes, I love the food business. I became a good barbecue man, and we had 32 years’ success. And it kind of got slow right at the last, but we did real good anyway. Five restaurants at one time. Made a little money. Built a big old house, one time, and that was a mistake. 3,500 square feet on four acres.

As a matter of fact, Dorothy Franey Langkop, when she turned 90, had 180 people in my home.

That’s a lot of people.

Paul: No kidding.

Sammy: And of course, all the barbecue they wanted, Budweiser, all the drinks – It was a big party.

Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn’t it crazy?

Sammy: Yeah.

Jerry finally accomplished his life long dream, meeting Lisa at the grand opening of the Star in Frisco.

Paul: So, now you own a Whataburger? Is that correct?

Sammy: We don’t own them but Lisa and I manage 20 Whataburger franchises.

We’re in the catering business, so we just pay year end. And so, I go out and create the business. We keep it, and we take care of business. And we did the deliveries, too. That’s it. We delivered early breakfast, sometimes, at 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning. Do late evenings, football games and stuff like that. We’ve been doing it for going on six years now.

Paul: Special events and stuff like that, yeah.

Sammy: Car dealerships – We just bring whatever they want, man.

Paul: I appreciate your time, my friend.

Sammy: It’s my pleasure. I appreciate you, buddy. The only thing I want to add, is how much I appreciate you, because you take the time to do these things. And just know that to tell everybody “Paul is my buddy, and I appreciate him.”

Paul: Well thank you sir. It’s greatly appreciated right back at ya! Thanks so much for your time!

Sammy and Lisa with the munchkins

I was looking for a title for this story and I kept thinking about one thing. Sammy is always smiling. He has this infectious, positive enthusiasm for everything he does and it starts with the way he presents himself. He's not the kinda fella who is easy to forget!

Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Inc.

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SMILING SAMMY WALKER

meminc — Thu, 14 Jan 2021 00:06:18 +0000

Shot Put Record Setter and US Olympian

Interview by Paul Heckmann, Exec Director, Memories Inc

Edited by Katherine Connella Weissmann

Paul Heckmann: Hey, Sammy. Paul Heckmann here.

Sammy Walker: Hello, Paul.

Paul: We’ve got a to talk about so let’s get right to it. Are you from the Dallas area originally?

Sammy: Born at Parkland Hospital.

Mom Dolores, Dad Sam Jr, sister Vicki and young Sammy. Rumor is Sammy had just shotputted his pacifier to the other side of the room…

Paul: Sisters and brothers?

Sammy: One sister, an older sister.

Paul: Tell about where you went to school.

Sammy: Ascher Silberstein Elementary, Blanton in 6^th grade, then back to Silberstein, John B. Hood Junior High. And W.W. Samuell High School

Paul: When did you find out you were really good at sports?

Paul: And that was one of the little eight-pound shots?

Sammy: Yes.

Sammy: Yep. And he said, “Sam, you have no idea how hard that is.” I said, “I don’t care, daddy. I’m going to do it anyhow.” I was driven as a young boy. That’s for sure.

Paul: Thirteen years old. To say you’re going to be in the Olympics and actually do it, that’s pretty impressive.

Now since your dad was in discus, he probably had a good idea about other track and field events

Sammy: Yeah, he threw the shot, also. He just was a lot better, and the first day we

Sammy’s Dad, a WWII Marine.

Paul: (laughs) “Son, you’ve got to go clean the rust off your shot.”

Then the Olympics came on TV in ’64.

Paul: That’s pretty impressive.

Sammy: That’s what kicked the gate down, yeah.

Paul: Now, when did you start playing football?

Paul: Where is Hood located?

Sammy: It’s in southeast Dallas, near the intersection of Jim Miller and Scyene.

Paul: Did you do any other sports in school?

Paul: When you did first feel like you had a shot at breaking the national record?

Paul: And you did it. Tell me about it.

Sammy on the cover of ‘Track and Field’ circa 1968

Paul: Was your dad okay?

Sammy: Yeah. But he wasn’t there, and it was devastating for me. I threw 68’, which is like an average practice throw for me.

Paul: So, what was your top throw in high school?

Sammy: 72’3¼”.

Paul: Amazing. I remember thinking how great 45’ was when I watched Barry Joe Pledger throw it at Midway (my little HS).

Paul: So, you’re doing really well in high school. At what point did you feel that you were going to go to college and throw the shot?

Paul: And you had a pretty good time at SMU from what you told me.

Paul: Were you playing fullback?

Sammy for the Track and Field Hall of Fame

Paul: What?

Paul: I know exactly who you’re talking about. Bill McClanahan.

Sammy: And Bucky used to interview me. Randy Galloway was a high school boy who interviewed people.

Paul: It was probably about his prime time, there, too.

Who was that working with the Cowboys that I maybe talked to for two or three hours, one time? One of the first Super Bowls of the black running back?

Paul: Duane Thomas?

Sammy: Yes, Duane Thomas. He walked up to my shot put ring and was destitute. He didn’t have a vehicle. And we talked for a long time.

Paul: Tell me a little bit about in college. I remember you telling me the other day that you had some insight on Hayden Fry.

I was in his office the next day, because I was on full scholarship for the shot put. I said, “Coach.” I said, “That shot put don’t hit back.” He laughed.

Paul: What a great personality. Hayden Fry.

Sammy: Hayden Fry was the greatest of the great. I loved that man.

I wasn’t a great football player. I was really quite average. See, when I was SMU as the fullback, I didn’t have that side to side speed, the quickness on left and right. That’s how I was.

Paul: Now, tell me about the Olympic trials and going out to the Olympics for the first time.

The lift that vaulted Sammy into the Olympics. He never stopped smiling!

Paul: Oh, boy.

Paul: What were the lifts back then? Wasn’t clean and jerk one?

Sammy: It’s two. The press was taken out in ’72, so it was just snatch and clean and jerk. My best lifts were 480 pounds clean and jerk and 350 pounds snatch.

Paul: Wow.

Paul: I see that in 1972, it looked like you were actually going to make the team, but you broke your shoulder.

Sammy: Yes. Motorcycle. I bought me a little 350 Honda, this was ’71 and I got up one Sunday morning to go get the newspapers.

Paul: What’s that?

Never got on a motorcycle ever again.

Paul: Okay, so, tell me about the Spoon Barbell Club.

Training for the 1976 Games

Paul: Okay. Now I’m going to jump back to the ’76 games. You were in the super heavyweight division. Isn’t that an open weight category?

Paul: Anybody that makes him look good is really doing something. (Sammy laughs). That man was built to lift weights. Now, he weighed up in the upper 300s or something at the time?

Sammy: You remember, Ivan Putski?

Paul: Oh, yeah. He was a stump. He was thick.

Paul: Wasn’t he state champ in discus?

Sammy: Of course. He almost broke the national record. I coached him. I wanted him to break the national record like he did.

Jack came to me, and introduced himself. And see, he was a SMU shot put record holder when I got to SMU.

Paul: I didnt know that!

Now, he got kicked out of SMU because he got married, didn’t he?

Sammy: Exactly. Most people don’t realize that exact truth. And you talking about Hayden Fry, you have to mention, I had to have permission from Hayden Fry to get married.

We talked. I sat in his office for part of an hour going over all the details to prove that I should get married in college and with a scholarship. And he okayed it. [Laughs]

Paul: Wow, man.

Sammy: And of course, Kerry … the drugs, and the draw of the ring, and all that, it just tore him up.

Sammy: You know, they’re all great athletes.

Paul: Well, I still remember the Von Erich kids. They were all very polite.

Sammy: Oh yes. One of them came to my restaurant 15 years ago.

He came to me, and he sat down, and we had lunch. And I helped him on a land deal in Rowlett, because I knew everybody out here.

Sammy: I don’t know much, really, about the family, but they say that Jack was a hard ass.

Paul: Oh, now tell me about the Queen of England.

US Olympic Weight Lifting Team

Paul: Yeah, just a small, intimate lunch. All at the same table, too.

Paul: Did you consider going professional and working Europe, like a lot of Track and Field people did?

Sammy competing for Athletic Attic around 77-78

Paul: So, about what year would that be?

Sammy: It had to have been ’73, ’74, ’75.

Paul: In between the Olympics

Sammy: Yeah, exactly.

But as far as pro track, now. I think, what’s going on now in the world, that was way past my era. None of us was ever involved in any pro track.

Paul: Europe was the place to be for track for a long time.

Paul: But you never were paid outright for that?

Sammy: No. We had our expenses and – And when we did California meets, we got a little money on the side.

Paul: Like a per diem or something?

Sammy: No. Cash money – I never picked up more than $3 or $4,000. Club would get $15,000 show up money.

As a matter of fact, Carl Lewis – They offered him a million dollars signing bonus in football, and you know what he told them? He said, “That’d be a paid promotion for me.” [Laughs]

Paul: Oh, he was good. He was so good.

Sammy: Yeah.

Paul: So about this time you ended up working at the Playboy Club.

Paul: Oh, boy.

Sammy: And it changed everything. It was a terrible year. ’78 was the worst year ever. ’79 I came back, and then ’80 had a pretty good year.

Paul: Tell me about the end of your competitive years. You moved on out of really competing, after, what? 1980? Around in there was your last big meet?

Paul: And here comes Randy Galloway?

When did you start coaching Michael Carter?

Sammy: His ninth grade year.

Paul: So, you were coaching him when he threw 81 feet?

Sammy: Here’s the deal, the truth of the matter.

I said, “Michael.” I picked up the 12 pound one time. I said, “This is how far you’re going to throw your senior year.” And I threw out through somewhere between 77 and 78 feet.

Paul: I sit and watched a video that they had, and it looked like he just kind of walked up there, and did it, and didn’t prepare for it, or anything.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

That particular day, truly, truly, there’s nobody on the planet that could’ve done what he did. Truly. Nobody.

Paul: It’s going to be a long, long time before that gets broken.

Before that was Jim Brian’s record. Finally broke it. I’m a track historian, and I love the sport. Very good with all the records and et cetera.

So, that Michael Carter was No. 1: He was a great athlete. No. 2: he was incredibly dedicated. I threw a hundred throws a day in high school, and he threw 150.

Paul: Oh, man. People don’t understand that wears your arm out something fierce, when you pop that thing at the end.

Sammy: Yeah, so true.

Paul: Here it is, half a century later, and you’ve still a top 10 thrower of all time

Sammy’s still a Top 10 thrower half a century later. Courtesy Tx.Milesplit.com

Paul: You’re going to get a scholarship somewhere.

Paul: Well, it’s quite a feat to be there in the top 10, still, after…well, I think 52 years or 53 years, something like that. That’s just incredible.

Sammy: You know who my good buddy Roy Martin.

Paul: Yeah! Roy the Robot.

Sammy: Yeah, I just saw him on the board of directors of our Olympian group here in Dallas. After all these years, there’s been only one kid that broke his record, 100 meters.

Sammy: Yes, he did.

Paul: Yeah. Now, and you also serve as a director on the OORF. Now, tell me what’s OORF stand for?

Sammy: Okay. Olympics for Olympian Relief Fund.

Paul: Okay.

Paul: The swimmer that won about a million Olympic medals?

So, Earl will probably step up as the OORF president this coming Monday morning at our board of directors meeting. I’ve served for 15 years, and Earl has served for 22 years.

Paul: Can you tell me a little bit about his charity?

Paul: Was that for blood disease?

Paul: So is the swabbing – What does that do? Do you know?

For someone who doesn’t know anything about Earl Young, to say, “Yes, I’ll do it.”

I visited Earl during his decline several times, and he was on his death bed. The fact that he kept doing this after he was healed tells you what kind of person Earl is.

Paul: Oh, wow. Let me give him a plug here for doing that

Earl Young’s Team

Tell me about Dorothy Franey Langkop.

Sammy: [Laughs] Oh, boy. How much time you got?

Paul: I wish I had known her. She sounds like a hoot.

Dorothy – She took me under her wing when I made the Olympic team, and treated me just – fun. I promise, of course, I’m a long-time friend with both her sons.

Paul: Sure.

Sammy: One of them’s a good guy, and one of them is a good (Laughs) Just kidding… both of them are good guys

She was the toast of Dallas. She knew the Hunts. She was the toast of Dallas. My mother used to go down and watch Dorothy when she was a young lady. And truly good character. A lovely, strong woman.

Paul: Who?

Sammy: Me!

Paul: No kidding!

Sammy: Yeah. And of course, I didn’t get to go. They didn’t have a presentation because of COVID.

Paul: What a year to win.

Sammy: Yes. What a year to win.

Paul: Now, tell me about pulling your neighbor out from his house in 2016. The tornado.

Sammy’s next door neighbors house

Paul: People don’t understand just how nasty tornadoes can be.

Sammy: So true.

Paul: It’s so true, exactly. You know, we’ve been talking for nearly two hours here.

Sammy: Is that right?

Paul: Yeah, it’s an hour and 52 minutes, I think. Something like that.

Sammy: Who knew.

Sammy: It’s an art.

Paul: So how did you get into the food industry?

Paul: Wow.

As a matter of fact, Dorothy Franey Langkop, when she turned 90, had 180 people in my home.

That’s a lot of people.

Paul: No kidding.

Sammy: And of course, all the barbecue they wanted, Budweiser, all the drinks – It was a big party.

Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn’t it crazy?

Sammy: Yeah.

Jerry finally accomplished his life long dream, meeting Lisa at the grand opening of the Star in Frisco.

Paul: So, now you own a Whataburger? Is that correct?

Sammy: We don’t own them but Lisa and I manage 20 Whataburger franchises.

Paul: Special events and stuff like that, yeah.

Sammy: Car dealerships – We just bring whatever they want, man.

Paul: I appreciate your time, my friend.

Paul: Well thank you sir. It’s greatly appreciated right back at ya! Thanks so much for your time!

Sammy and Lisa with the munchkins

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CHARLIE WATERS & THE ALLIGATOR SHOES

PAUL HECKMANN — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 18:19:25 +0000

by Paul Heckmann

Executive Director, Memories Inc.

“If I had 45 players that tried as hard and cared as much as Charlie did, we would not lose a football game.”
Dallas Cowboys Coach Tom Landry

Charlie was a veritable encyclopedia of football, the consummate NFL pro. Very smart, very articulate and needed absolutely no direction from me to tell his story! He jumped right in. I simply turned on the recorder and let him tell it the way he remembered.
—
Charlie Waters: We were on the cutting edge in preparation.

Paul Heckmann: I was gonna go into this a little bit later on, but you worked with Bob Ward quite a bit didn’t you?

Cowboy Strength and Conditioning coach Bob Ward with Bruce Lee training partner Dan Inosanto.

Bob Ward taught us all that stuff. And he was so unique and modernized, Dan Inosanto was his teacher. Dan was taught by Bruce Lee.

I owe an awful lot to Bob, he’s very, very progressive in his thinking.

Paul: Did you know Paul Ward, his brother?

Charlie: No.

Charlie: You talk about some timing and coordination. That’s a Hell of a thing, spin around like that, and throw that sucker out. I don’t know how in the world you all did that.

Charlie: I’m glad we can laugh about it.

Paul: Oh, my God.

Charlie: Did you ever meet me?

Charlie: I’m sure we did. The Greenville Ave bars.

Charlie: So, what are you doing with this interview?

Paul: We have just started a new Facebook Football page for Memories Inc called Memories of Texas Football. I interviewed John Fitzgerald Booty 1, 2 for our first football interviews. Carthage kid that played at Cisco and TCU before a 9 year NFL career. For the Memories of Dallas Facebook page and webpage, I interviewed Barry Corbin about a month and a half ago. The actor that did Northern Exposure, he played Uncle Bob in Urban Cowboy – the fellow got knocked out by lightning, you know, John Travolta’s uncle. Also just did one with Burton Gilliam, from Blazing Saddles and Papermoon.

Charlie: Burton’s a good friend of mine, too.

Memories of Dallas and Memories of Texas Football are two things we’re looking at for your interview.

Our 501c3 Non-Profit, Memories Inc. has been around for a little over two years.

Do you know Angus Wynne by chance?

Charlie: I do. I know Angus quite well.

Paul: Yeah. Angus is on our Board of Directors.

Charlie: Angus Wynne is legitimate. He’s special. Tell him that I said hello and along with Rosie. He knows Rosie.

Paul: Will do!

So, let’s get back to Charlie Waters. Now you were born in Miami, how old were you when you moved to North Augusta?

Paul: Was that Keith?

So yeah, we moved there to North Augusta when I was 10 and started in baseball.

Paul: Gotcha. Now it looked to me – I was looking on the map there, in some of the photos. That looked like a great area for hunting and fishing and stuff like that. Is that something you guys did?

Charlie: No, I never got into that. We never could. We barely had enough money to put food on the table.

Paul: I see.

Charlie: My dad was, as I said, was a construction worker, and it was – I had one baseball glove the whole time I was growing up. Playing five years of baseball. And Keith, by brother, got a baseball scholarship to Clemson. Surprisingly, it was just about the time I signed as a quarterback for Clemson, by brother got a baseball scholarship to Clemson. Go figure.

He’s three years older that I was, but he was on the baseball team. And when I signed with Clemson, they gave him a scholarship.

Paul: Oh. I see.

Charlie: He earned it, but it didn’t happen until I signed with Clemson.

Paul: Was that supposed to be, maybe, an enticement? For you to sign?

Charlie: Yes. Those kind of things happen. If he didn’t deserve it, I

Charlie set to score for the Tigers

Paul: Frank Howard. Absolutely.

Charlie: Frank Howard days were just a trip, man. You’re talking about a strange comparison between him and Tom Landry.

Paul: Well, tell me about Frank Howard.

Charlie: Well, he was tough. That’s one thing he did, made sure we all knew that you had to be tough to play football. But he was at the end of his career, and he was almost like a comedian. He used to say, boy, the things I remember… “Boy, you believe in magic?” That’s what he asked me one time when I was – after I’d moved to wide receiver, our quarterback got hurt, in the game. And we had out other backup quarterback Well then he gets hurt. So, Coach Howard calls a time out, brings the whole team around, then he reaches over and grabs me on the shoulder pad.

Frank Howard, legendary coach at Clemson from 1940 to 1969

He said “Charlie, you believe in magic?” I said, “Sure I do.” He said “Well, poof, you’re a frigging quarterback.” Those are the kind of things – he said. He said “Boy, you looking for sympathy? You can look it up in the dictionary. It’s between s**t and syphilis.” Those are the kind of things I remember about Frank Howard.

Paul: (laughs) Well, I was sitting here trying to think of Tom Landry saying the same thing.

Charlie: Yeah. Just go to Tom Landry and then go to Frank Howard.

But he believed in me. He did. I remember one time, this is when I was still playing quarterback.

And then the next thing I know, I get a call from Gil Brandt. He says, Charlie, can you run backwards?

Paul: (Laughs) ‘What do you mean Gil?’

Charlie: Yeah, what do you mean? Well, we just picked you as a defensive back in the third round in the 1970 draft. We’re hoping you can run backwards.

I said, what about tackling? Don’t I have to know how to tackle? So anyway, it was the beginning.

Paul: That is wild.

Paul: Not at all. You’re covering point by point what I was gonna ask you. So, it’s perfect.

Paul: A basketball player?

Charlie: A basketball player.

Gil Brandt at his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame

Paul: A basketball player and a quarterback turned defensive back.

Charlie: And Gil Brandt is the reason for all of that, without a doubt.

Paul: I know, crazy.

Charlie: Gil Brandt was a genius, and don’t tell him I said that, but he is pretty special.

Paul: We won’t… wink-wink

Charlie: Oh, he’s a fascinating interview. You need to call him. Ask him to tell the story about alligator shoes.

Paul: Alligator shoes? Oh, my God.

Charlie: Yeah. I gotta tell you this one story. It’s just so funny.

Paul: Now, this is 1970, isn’t it?

And four days later, after he’d sent me that money, he sent me an invoice in the mail for the alligator shoes.

Paul: (laughs) God dang it!

Charlie: Is that classic or what?

Paul: I remember that. He could fly!

Charlie Waters and Cliff Harris

Paul: I heard him described as ‘a bag of knives’.

Paul: 1972?

“If I had 45 players that tried as hard and cared as much as Charlie did, we would not lose a football game.”

Tom Landry, the first Dallas Cowboy Coach

Cowboy DBack Coach Gene Stallings, Charlie Waters and Cliff Harris

Randy White and Charlie Waters comparing abs

Paul: Randy White.

Paul: Isn’t it something? Some players, they play their whole career and never make a single Super Bowl.

Charlie Waters in 1975. It was all about the hair

Paul: So I hear, there was a poll in 1975, ‘the most underrated, unsung, and all probability underpaid player in the NFL’, and they said that was Charlie Waters, 1975.

Charlie: Yeah, I won the Sports Illustrated unsung hero award two years in a row. Two years in a row, but you know, if you get unsung, if you get an unsung hero, don’t you get sung?

Paul: (Laughs)

Charlie: That ain’t right. So I mean, I played one year with a broken arm when I was playing corner.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Charlie: That’s just the way it is.

Charlie: Nope. That’s right. My rod in my arm was 18 inches long. It was a titanium rod. And let me tell you something, every bone in my body would’ve broken before that bone broke.

Paul: We know the six million dollar man would not work.

Paul: So, let me ask you about – going back to 1971. Now you’ve got to another Super Bowl, you got a win over the Dolphins. And your dad had a near fatal heart attack in the stands.

Charlie: That’s correct. Near the end of the game, it was really a come from behind, it was dramatic, and of course Roger worked magic, miracles and stuff.

Paul: He taught you something, didn’t he?

Charlie: Yeah he did.

Paul: That’s for sure. Sorry to hear hear of his passing, it’s something we can be sure of.

Charlie: Wow, that’s hilarious.

Paul: I think that’s what they call dark humor. It’s kinda like, how can you not grin, no matter if it’s your dad or not?

So you played for 12 years?

Paul: So, who were the leaders of the team back when you first came in?

Charlie: Well, Lee Roy Jordan ran the defense, as middle linebacker. And Cornell Green would be in charge of the secondary. And Bob Lilly was a quiet, great performer. Offensive side of the ball was Roger, of course. And Dan Reeves was the coach, the player/coach for a while and then he ended up being a coach. I really wish that Dan would’ve taken over the offense. Coach Landry handled both sides of the ball. I mean, nobody does that. He was the only coach in the history of the NFL that handled both sides of the ball. He worked his tail off, and he had an idea for all of it.

He had me for life, and he was really a good person. A smart person.

Paul: Tell me about the bicycle built for two. For you and Cliff

Charlie: Is that goofy or what?

A bicycle built for two!

Paul: I’m sitting there going, ‘I can just about guarantee these two boys there did not buy that bike!’

Charlie: (laughs) No, they did not! It was some kind of cover shot, they brought the bike.

Paul: That was pretty good, I like that one.

So also, you were an expert at one other thing, there. A lot of other people forget, and that’s holding for extra points.

Charlie: Yeah. Extra points field goals, yeah. I did it for 10 years.

Paul: Oh, no.

Charlie: Accusing me of throwing the game. It’s all your fault!

+++++++++++++End of Part One. We pick up the next day+++++++++++++++

Cowboys Pro Bowlers

Charlie: Hey, good morning, Paul.

Paul: Hey, Charlie. How are you doing, buddy?

Charlie: Doing all right. How about yourself?

Paul: Good, good, good. D

I’m just going to kind of pick up where we were yesterday. Now I did have a question for you. I keep seeing this four blocked punts in a single game. Is that correct?

Charlie: No, not in a single game. Four blocked punts in two separate games. Back to back. Two in one game and then two, the next game.

Paul: Makes more sense.

Paul: I was trying to figure out how in world a coach wouldn’t adjust to that with the up back or something.

Charlie: What are they doing? Don’t they want to block me? You’d think they’d try to block me.

Paul: I was sitting there thinking that special teams coach didn’t have a job the next day.

Charlie: That’s exactly right. The next year, there’s another coach.

Paul: I would have put the three upbacks on you. To heck with everybody else.

Charlie: (Laughs) Well you had Thomas Henderson on the inside. And man, those guys were ferocious, so they had to collapse down on them.

Coach Landry and Ed ‘Too Tall’ Jones… yep, Coach is smiling

Paul: Oh, you had Too Tall in the middle.

Charlie: Yeah.

Paul: That’s right, because, mean, he just stuck his paw up there and he blocked a couple of them.

Charlie: Yeah, he used to block field goals. He never block the punts. But Gene Stallings is the person that taught me how to block a punt.

Paul: Tell me!

Paul: It’s a science.

Charlie: – Yeah, a science. Sure.

Cowboy coach Ernie Stautner

Paul: So, tell me a little bit about Ernie Stautner.

Thomas Henderson against the Broncos in the Super Bowl win

Paul: So, I talked to Thomas Henderson, told him I was going to be interviewing you, he said to remind you, “Charlie played off my hip. He once called me a gazelle.”

Paul: No tight end

Paul: Kind of reaffirm it.

Paul: Thomas really spoke highly of you. He really did.

Charlie: And I think a lot of him, I think he’s a really, really good person. He just was a little bit full of himself back in the day and I understand why.

Paul: What more can you ask?

Tell me a little bit about Roger Staubach, the man, the myth.

Roger Staubach and Charlie Waters in charity ball game